Yosh Suzuks in AMA SBK...

Phadreus · 04-27-2008, 7:46 PM

I heard Greg White anounce today durring the race the Yosh Suzuki's have one 31 (now 32) of the last 31 races since 2006. They are undefeated. That is incredible. I have not heard any hub bub about AMA considering any rule changes or anything. I struggle with weather they should consider rule changes in the SBK class to "improve" competition at the front.

On a side note, it was great to see Neil battling for podium with the new Fireblade. I have a bad feeling that Miguel has seen his best years and will not make it back to being competetive again...I could be wrong of course.

Any thoughts on the Yosh situation?

slickwill · 04-27-2008, 8:53 PM

There are HUGE rule changes in the works for AMA. The AMA was bought out by the same group that owns NASCAR and they have already revealed a bunch of changes in the AMA classes. For now the 1000 class will remain similar but they are making a new class that will be based on power to weight ratio so everyone can race whatever they want, 600's, 1000's, 1200cc twins, whatever as long as the rearwheel horsepower and weight divide to produce the same number. It could be interesting.

lanbrown · 04-27-2008, 9:11 PM

The new rules are a joke and don't really go far enough.

It really doesn't have to do with rule changes to get the others competitive, but just enforce the existing rules. You have SPies and Mladin calling out a red flag and they run and either get their bike repaired or switch to the other bike. Mladin ran out to the middle of the track and just laid there until the red flag was waved. He then went to his other bike to resume the race. This was on the first lap.

Some rule changes need to made though; like you can't work on the bike under a red.
Does this look fair? Crash, take the ambulance but he runs to restart the race.
YouTube - Mat Mladin AMA motorcycle racing
I say he faked it so they would call the red and give time for the bike to be repaired. Honda, Kawaski and Yamaha should just boycott until Suzuki doesn't have the power they do. And having the group that runs Nascar run motorcycle racing will only kill it. Nascar is not a racing body, but a marketing company selling a product. It is not about the racing, but making as much money as possible with. Examples; "Official product of Nascar" stuff.

ptlcb1 · 04-27-2008, 10:45 PM

Since 2006, Mladin and Spies, have been the two best riders, on the best bikes in the AMA. Spies is a great talent. His riding style is similiar to Mladins. Thats why I think he got so fast, so quick, on the gsxr. Besides, how can you not become fast, having Mladin as a teammate. Spies is a younger Mladin. Mladin has been on the same bike for a long time. It really has been built around him, for him. No one has had that much time, on the same bike, like Mladin has. Duhamel has, but he is on the down-slide now, sorry to say. Spies will move to MOtoGP soon. Mladin will move on to the next chapter in his life, and the AMA Superbike series will become competitive again...

lanbrown · 04-27-2008, 11:27 PM

I would not call either of those two the best riders. Do you call going out on the track to get a red flag called the actions of the best riders? I would not. The AMA allowed Suzuki to gte away with way too much that was visible, it makes you wonder what they allowed them to get away with that wasn't. I cannot think of a single racing body besides the AMA that would allow someone that crashed off the course to get up, go to the trac, lay in the middle of it until the red flag was called and let them get away with it. Mladin has caused a red flag at least twice and continued the race and Spies has at least once as well.

I wouldn't even call them professionals.

ptlcb1 · 04-28-2008, 7:44 PM

Call them what you want, but like it was stated above, they have been kicking everyone's ass for the past few years, whether you like them or not. Over the last few years, the title chase between those two have come down to the very end of the season. It has come down to only a few points...

Winning that championship is what those two guys care about very much! Thats why they race each other as hard as they do! They are only teammates by contract... They both have learned alot from each other, and have brought out the best in each other. If you know you are going to need EVERY POINT to beat that guy, then you are going to get every possible point you can, every single weekend! They both knew the rules! They knew what the circumstances were to cause a red flag and the process of getting back into the race. Hate all you want. I dont like them very much either, but they are smart enough to know the rules and how the rules apply to every situation! You dont agree with what they did, and thats your opinion, but it shows how prepared those two guys really are! Blame the AMA for having rules in place for those situations to happen. Its not their fault.

Phadreus · 04-28-2008, 7:52 PM

I may not agree with the red flag / restart situations but I can't deny how fast those two guys move through the field and end up at the front on the restarts. I would be willing to bet if they inverted the start orders, or even just put Mat and Ben at the rear, they would still end up 1 n 2 pretty much every race.

Torch · 05-01-2008, 1:40 AM

The yosh suzuki's are dialed in and have been for a long time. Every year I used to go to Mid-Ohio and Road America, but I no longer have the desire to go to AMA races. Suzuki ruled the 750's and when they uped it to the 1000's they were still set. Everybody else has been trying to get the right set-up, and Suzuki's been there. The 3 yosh riders are 1-2-3 in the points, and if TH didn't get hurt it would probably end up that way by the end of the year. Hopefully Neil can get the CBR dialed in and run up front, but the GSXR's are just too good right now. I would like to see Eboz run up there too. Hopefully the new owners can get some more sponsors, teams, and riders into the AMA.

lanbrown · 05-01-2008, 2:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptlcb1

They both knew the rules! They knew what the circumstances were to cause a red flag and the process of getting back into the race. Hate all you want. I dont like them very much either, but they are smart enough to know the rules and how the rules apply to every situation! You dont agree with what they did, and thats your opinion, but it shows how prepared those two guys really are! Blame the AMA for having rules in place for those situations to happen. Its not their fault.

They know how to cause a red flag. Crashing, getting up only to lay in the middle of the track to cause a red flag is as unprofessional as you can get. You don't see the other riders pulling that and do you know why? Because they are professionals and that know that crashing happens. They screwed up and they take the lump for it. Mladdin put other racers at risk by laying intentionally on the track.

Suzuki pretty much has the AMA in it's pocket; that is why Suzuki wins. Look at WSB, Suzuki was third. Look at BSB, they did even worse. So why does Suzuki do so well in the AMA but not in the other series? The AMA allows Suzuki to get away with things that the other manufacturers can't. I wouldn't be surpised when next year Suzuki falters and they don't win like they do now.

ptlcb1 · 05-01-2008, 5:23 PM

I seriously doubt that any riders in the AMA crash on purpose, as your comments suggest. Its what they did after the crash that you dont agree with, but your blame should be with the rules that allow situations like that to happen. They did what the rules allowed...period. That doesnt make them unprofessional. Check the AMA Superbike Rules book. Im sure you will not find any type of penalty for a rider, running on the track after a crash, laying down to cause a red flag, so he can get back in the race. You dont agree and you are entitled to that. Other riders dont do it because they have not been in contention for the Superbike title... Maldin knows, that against Spies, he will need all the points he can get.

I think it wasnt the smartest thing to do either... But the rules allowed him to do that. Should he have been penalized for doing that, oh yea! He crossed the line regarding the safety of himself and others racers. There should have been an immediate penalty for that! But there wasnt. Why? No rules in place to deal with such a bonehead move. The red flag was the right thing to do for safety reasons, whether the act was intentional or not. But he should have been suspended from continuing that race for intentionally causing that red flag...

Im curious... What things does the AMA allow Suzuki to "get away" with, that they dont allow other manufacturers to get away with???

Suzuki wins, in the AMA, because they got it together! They have a great hard working team, great riders, on a well sorted bike. Thats why they win. Mladin has been the best and his titles prove that. Spies is the same. These two have dominanted AMA Superbike over the last few years. Their talent and hard work is why they win... They will be remembered for the number of titles they have won and not for a few bonehead acts... To say they are unprofessional, because they are smart enough to know how to get back in a race, is a bit much.

lanbrown · 05-01-2008, 5:55 PM

I never said they crashed on purpose. But Mladin did crash off of the track and got up, went to the track to just lay on the track to cause the red flag to stop the race. How low can you get? The red flag was not the right thing to do. let his a$$ get run over. Pay for your actions; if he is really lucky, it would be Ben that runs him over and really cause a reason for the red flag.

How about traction control? It was illegal but AMA couldn't prove if someone used it or not. They could do the FIA/F1 method, get access to the code and see.

Suzuki wins in the AMA because the AMA doesn't look at what they do. Suzuki performs poorly in the other series, what does that tell you? We will see when the new owners implement their changes and if Suzuki struggles then we all will know why, they were allowed to cheat. Them causing a red flag will also be over.

slickwill · 05-01-2008, 8:38 PM

Quote:

Suzuki performs poorly in the other series, what does that tell you? We will see when the new owners implement their changes and if Suzuki struggles then we all will know why, they were allowed to cheat.

I think the reason that Suzuki performs well in AMA and not in WSBK, BSBK, etc. is that they build a bike that is better suited to match the AMA homologation rules and the others choose to build a bike that matches the WSBK rules. Each series allows different levels and types of modification so a bike that is built with the right stuff for one series might not have the right stuff for the other series. I'm not sure if I explained that very well but I think you get the idea.

I'm not even going to get into the red flag issue but it was a BS move.

ptlcb1 · 05-01-2008, 11:13 PM

You say low... I say it was dumb as well, but come on... It was knowing what the rules allow, plain and simple. Because he knew the rules, that move, although dumb, kept him in the championship hunt! Mladin goal is to win every race he starts. He is an extremely competitive guy! He knew that corner workers are trained that the second there is a bike or rider on any part of the racing surface, regardless of how they get there, they must throw the red flag! Once the red flag is thrown, there starts a process for getting back into the race. He was not penalized because he didnt break any rules... Morally, yes it was a bonehead move, but by rule, he did nothing wrong.

What about Traction Control? Is there proof that Suzuki was using it? OR was that just a rumor? If it is illegal to have it, then is it Suzuki's fault that the AMA couldnt prove it? Nope. Why have the rule if its not going to be enforced? If the AMA says its illegal to have TC but can not prove the use of it, then who else was using it? And if others were using it, then their system surely is not as good as the Suzuki TC, if in fact Suzuki was using TC.

Honda has been kicking ass in BSB, but receiving ass kickings in AMA. So are the Hondas in BSB illegal? Slick is right with what he said. I understood it! LOL

lanbrown, You seem to lean towards the premise that Suzuki cheats. You must know something no one else does. They are innocent until proven guilty. When it becomes front page news that they have cheated, thats when I will believe it. Until then, they are the best team the AMA, whether we like it or not...

lanbrown · 05-02-2008, 1:39 AM

It has nothing to do with Suzuki building the bikes for AMA. American Hond adoes just that a sthey do not get help/ask for help from HRC. Honda does well in BSB and SBK but not the AMA. Suzuki doesn't do much in those two at all. A rumor is usually true. How do you know the other teams were following the rules and Suzuki wans't?

You seem to want to defend the AMA. The AMA was poorly run from the start and that is why a new racing body is taking over it. I expect to see Suzuki start to struggle next year.

gitganben · 05-02-2008, 3:01 PM

The Yosh boys are definitely out of hand. I agree, the new governing body will definitely help things out, this series needs a good douching. Every dog has it's day though, take a look at the Suzuki MotoGP team. Even if the Yosh's dominated for the last however many years, no one can stay on top forever. The format change should help out immensely.

I think motorcycle racing as a whole has become less entertaining in the past few years. The advent of 800's in GP, the domination of the Yosh boys, and the general disappearance of the two stroke engine all make for generally less exciting racing. (I'm not saying it's all bad, just not as good as it could be).

The Red Bull Rookies cup is neat, but doesn't get a whole lot of attention, and obviously, is lacking the intensity of the main classes.

It looks like Supersport's are the ones to watch this year. Honda and Yamaha are a good battle, as long as Bostrom and Herrin don't check out from the beginning.

And outside of supersport, at least we can look forward to two GP races stateside this year.

Maybe I'm old school or maybe I'm just jaded.

. . . for what any of that is worth.

ptlcb1 · 05-02-2008, 3:57 PM

lanbrown,
A rumor is only true if there are facts to back it up. No one has presented facts that state Suzuki was cheating, so there are innocent until proven guilty... I am not defending the AMA at all. Not sure how you come to that conclusion.

What I have been saying, is the AMA is to blame for not enforcing the rules they set forth, if Suzuki has been cheating. The riders are not the ones to blame. You lean towards the premise that Suzukis championship were tainted. Well, if the AMA has not proved Suzuki to have cheated, then no foul play has been committed. Mladin and Spies' championships are legit until proven otherwise. They are the two best riders, whether we like them or not. Is it Suzukis fault that the AMA was poorly run??? Nope.

Are the Yosh boys really out of hand? Or are they just in a class of two??? Lap times dont lie...

gitganben · 05-02-2008, 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptlcb1

lanbrown,
Well, if the AMA has not proved Suzuki to have cheated, then no foul play has been committed. Mladin and Spies' championships are legit until proven otherwise. They are the two best riders, whether we like them or not. Is it Suzukis fault that the AMA was poorly run??? Nope.

Are the Yosh boys really out of hand? Or are they just in a class of two??? Lap times dont lie...

Right on, I should have changed that to, "the situation is out of hand." I do think the AMA could have done some things differently to have avoided this current quagmire.

Mat and Ben are phenomenal riders on phenomenal bikes. But the competition, just hasn't been there. It's not Suzuki's fault or the riders fault, after all, they're just chasing the title at any cost, and like lanbrown said, doing it by the rules.

So by the rules they are the champs.

But, it's undeniable that the racing has been less entertaining.

I guess the big question is - Should the AMA have changed the rules sooner so that all the teams would have had new parameters to work within? (Possibly giving all the other teams the chance to catch up.)

But on the other hand, is that dumbing down the series because one team was just too good at it? (which is bogus too)

Like I said before, the format change is a good thing for the series.

It's definitely an interesting situation for moto racing fans.

ptlcb1 · 05-02-2008, 6:48 PM

The racing has been less entertaining overall, regarding the AMA Superbikes, unless Matt and Ben are close. Its great racing when they are battling bar to bar! Runaway wins are boring. I say when races are runaways, tv coverage should cover the battles going on at the bottom of the pack!

Those guys sacrifice alot to make AMA grids week end and week out! Usually when the leaders do get into lappers, its usually a small pack of them running together. If you watch the standing as they roll across the screen, those guys are always swapping positions! Heck, give them some face time! Once in a while, lets see the battle for 15th place!!!

World Supersport seems to be the race to watch for lots of action!

lanbrown · 05-04-2008, 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptlcb1

No one has presented facts that state Suzuki was cheating, so there are innocent until proven guilty... I am not defending the AMA at all. Not sure how you come to that conclusion.

It doesn't work that way in racing; that is for citizens of the US. A team is not a cittizen and the sanctioning body is not the US. You also have freddom of speech but yet the owner of this site can delete or edit the posts of anyone. You could also be removed for no reason. This is the same on any forum.

How about this:
"After working as a race engineer at Yoshimura R&D for six years and helping Mat Mladin bring home his first 3 AMA Superbike championships, Ammar Bazzaz decided to start Bazzaz Performance in an effort to fill this need in the racing market, ultimately with the goal of bringing this same technology and knowledge to the average racer and motorcycle enthusiast."

I wonder where he got all of his ideas from? He even has traction control that doesn't take any additional inputs other than what the ECU already has. Hmmmmmmm. First products he produced were only for the Suzuki. Read between the lines.

Phadreus · 05-04-2008, 3:55 PM

Lan, you are hitting on something that I've wondered about. I can't beleive the guys with Yosh Suzuk has been the same guys for the last 10 years. If they indeed have found the "magic setups" for going fast, why hasn't that information "leaked" around to the other teams? I would think it impossible to keep all the secrets all the time...

lanbrown · 05-04-2008, 4:08 PM

Or more importantly, why they were "leaked" to the other Suzuki teams in the other series. They do great in the AMA but poorly elsewhere.

ptlcb1 · 05-04-2008, 5:21 PM

lanbrown,
Yes it does work that way in racing. That is why Josh Hayes got DQ'd from winning the Daytona 200. They were assumed innocent until post race teardown proved them to have an illegal crank. Like I said before, if Suzuki has not been found of any foul play, then they are not guilty of anything other than kicking everyones butt over the last few years.

Until there are facts that clearly show they have broken rules, they are innocent. You still have not shown anything that proves Suzuki bent or broke rules... Reading between the lines, is an OPINION...thats all. Facts are what proves people innocent or gulity. You can believe they are/have cheated, but there are no facts that back up what you say....

lanbrown · 05-04-2008, 5:41 PM

Here you go:
"If a race was stopped because riders were down, the first rider
down is placed last in the restart, etc., with the last rider down
behind the last rider who did not fall. If for any reason a rider does
not complete the red-flagged lap, he too will be placed in the rear of
the restart in a position respective of his stoppage. If the race is
called complete the riders will be scored in the position in which
they would have restarted."

Mladdin was not down, he got up, walked to the track and then decided to lay in the middle of the track. He was not a downed rider. The rule also says riders, not rider.

Lastly:
"Causing a race to be stopped. At the referee’s discretion, a rider
judged to have caused a red flag may be excluded from restarting
the event."

slickwill · 05-04-2008, 5:46 PM

I still believe it has a lot to do with the difference in the rules that they allow on engine modification and that the other manufacturers choose to build engines allowing the best modification within WSBK rules and that Suzuki chooses to build an engine that is best prepared for AMA rules. Why wouldn't they at this point, they sell a lot bikes based on being able to brag about those AMA wins. It doesn't mean a thing to someone who actually follows racing but to Joe Blow who has never actually watched a race but wants a bike the salesman at Suzuki can say they've been the winning bike for 20 years, blah, blah, blah.

I also believe that Mladin and Spies are good riders and I believe that they have gotten away with a little "gamesmanship."

Here is some info from someone that I trust who knows more about the issue than I do and at least to some degree agrees on the engine internals theory.

Quote:

Some pretty big differences here. C/R modifications allowed by both, but:

WSBK allows non-stock cam profiles - AMA appears to allow reprofiling as long as stock lift isn't exceeded. Obviously lots of power potential here.
WSBK allows non-stock crankshafts and con-rods, AMA only allows balancing and (presumably) polishing. Bottom-end strength means more RPM, and more RPM means more power. Generally, anyway.

Both require stock valve sizes, and both appear to allow porting within homologated castings.

So while I still don't know, I suspect it's a combination of things. Here are a couple of potential reasons - I'm speculating, so feel free to disagree:

WSBK rules allowing more engine modifications favor clever engine builders, and a power advantage has a bigger overall effect on European tracks
The US series more heavily favors grip and bump-handling (remember when E-Boz used to be competitive on an 800?) over pure power.
Yosh gets the best tires
Suzuki base package is the best 'starting' platform for restrictive AMA engine rules. What do the privateers usually ride?

lanbrown · 05-04-2008, 6:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slickwill

I still believe it has a lot to do with the difference in the rules that they allow on engine modification and that the other manufacturers choose to build engines allowing the best modification within WSBK rules and that Suzuki chooses to build an engine that is best prepared for AMA rules. Why wouldn't they at this point, they sell a lot bikes based on being able to brag about those AMA wins. It doesn't mean a thing to someone who actually follows racing but to Joe Blow who has never actually watched a race but wants a bike the salesman at Suzuki can say they've been the winning bike for 20 years, blah, blah, blah.

I also believe that Mladin and Spies are good riders and I believe that they have gotten away with a little "gamesmanship."

Here is some info from someone that I trust who knows more about the issue than I do and at least to some degree agrees on the engine internals theory.

Polishing is not really allowed, only a very small portion; where the rods are. You can remove weight to balance it, but not lighten it. The rule is not clear as to balance it, you usually remove weight. You can't add weight unless you follow the same procedure as the manufacturer. This is probably what got Hayes DQ'd.

A privateer rides a Suzuki because they pay more money if you win. The contingency money that Suzuki pays is much more than Honda.

slickwill · 05-04-2008, 6:33 PM

Quote:

A privateer rides a Suzuki because they pay more money if you win. The contingency money that Suzuki pays is much more than Honda.

Yeah, that's really the only thing that I disagreed with in that stuff I quoted. I think contingency money is the main reason privateers run Suzuki. Definitely agree with you on that one.

Quote: