[Chain]

Originally Posted by fumbducker

Chain...WTF...How is a LEO a better human being than a fisherman, a parts counter worker, etc? Your comment that I quoted above makes me sick... You are clearly stating that, in your opinion to all, that cops are a better, more valuable class of people than the average Joe...WTF!

I give up on you fumb. You simply don't read my post(s) with a critical eye.

I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that cops are somehow better than anyone else, but rather that line of duty deaths they suffer while making the streets safer for us all ought to be taken notice of.

Then sheep made a comment about the poor bastard being "a good man" and you guys go go into meltdown.

[ND4SPD]

[Skully]

Originally Posted by G-Force Junkie

Is it shocking if a painter gets paint on his hand or a butcher cuts his finger or a welder burns his skin???

What an intelligent comparison.

[G-Force Junkie]

Originally Posted by Chain

Honestly GFJ, I didn't know there were two sides to the fence on this matter.

I didn't draw demarcation lines in the sand.

I posted first in this thread, said the trooper's death was sad, made a comment that I hoped would keep the thread from going into a debate about police chases, then gave the deceased officer a little emoticon salute for his quarter century service to his community.

What the heck's wrong with that?

Is that a bunch of poor me crying?

Is that placing cops on some sort of pedestal?

Seriously man, I have no clue what I said to provoke those from the "other side" of the fence.

You did draw a line in the sand...That a cops life is more valuable than a fishermans just becasue his chosen job. I don't believe that at all. There is a very clear "fence" between LEO and the rest of us, You hold power over all of us, legaly have more power than us, and get special treatment from other LEO. Socialy, that puts LEO and the rest of us very seperate groups. No matter who I am, or any non-LEO is, you ALWAYS have the power to have us arrested. And in a court of law, your word holds more power than ours. That, combined with the fact that your job exposes you to the scum of the earth everyday, molds attitudes, both the LEO's and the rest of us. I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop. My point is respect is earned, not give with a job title. Cops, fireman, fisherman, welders, house painter, burger flippers, NOBODY deserves special treatment or respect because they took a particular job. Their excelent performance in their jobs, their taking care of their family needs, their help in forming and maintaing a nice community, those actions earn respect. A cop getting killed doing his job is not any more worthy of a pedestal than a crab fisherman killed doing his job. I know it "hits home" for you alot as that is your chosed profession, but that does not make one persons death more special than another. Again, Im not trying to cop bash, or lessen the terrable loss that officers family is going through. My issue is putting someone on a pedestal because of their chosen profession. Alot of people do more dangerious jobs without the perks of LEO.

[bwhip]

Wow. I'm really shocked by some of the responses here. I don't think Chain was out of line in calling the death of this officer a tragedy.

Yes, cops and firemen and soldiers know they are taking a higher level of risk than the rest of us, but thank God they're willing to! And I do believe that if any of them are killed while doing what they do for us that they should be honored and appreciated for their courage. The fact that they know what they are getting into does not make their service any less honorable, or in some cases, heroic.

[Fig]

I don't think it's the fact that Chain called it a tragedy and I don't think it's intended directly at Chain either. He just happens to be in the same profession, and made the initial posting. I do think that it's more of a backlash to the instant accusations making the busa rider out to be the heavy. There is an extreme lack of incriminating evidence against this man, and 100% against a mechanical malfunction.

It totally goes against what I thought was the mentality of the site. Sure had this busa rider been doing wheelies past the cop, and endangering lives and we know this with proven facts, then I agree, hang the s.o.b. But all we have is a phone call accusing him of racing against a non existent porsche at the moment.. People making the initial accusation are also part of the problem here. People see a sportbike, and think squid, and the first time this guy rolls on the throttle, they are on the phone with 911 saving the rest of society from this obvious crazed menace. Maybe if the guys hadn't been racing, this never would have happened, but what if there was no race, and the concerned driver was just phoning in what he thought was happening, then this wouldn't have happened. We don't know if the busa rider was running from the cop, or just riding down the freeway. The cop had to best his speed in order to overtake him, we do know that, which may or may not have been an error in judgement by the cop. Who's to say, he isn't around to stick up for himself. We don't know how far behind this bike he was either. Who knows, he may have damaged the tire turning around, but then we don't even know if he had to turn around. There are just too many blanks in the info to pin it on the busa.

It's this general lack of real facts, yet the immediate blame of the motorcycle rider that I believe has most people up in arms, myself included. Stop for a while, let the facts come in, then crucify the guy if needed, but the fact is, we are all damaged by people jumping to conclusions about our favorite pastime.

I don't think anyone here would ever deny that a tragedy has happened.
Fig

[fumbducker]

Originally Posted by Chain

The notion that a police officer and a fisherman should share the same stature among his peers in his community is beyond me, at least as it relates to how said community should remember him when he is killed protecting them.

"Give up," all you want...was the above not posted by you? "Critical eye? I'm only responding to what you posted...not anyone else's reaction to what you posted. Cops/yourself are not the do all end all of our society...I truly appreciate the job you do...But when you get a big head, (pun intended,) and make noise like you did that officers of the law are are a higher being,(see above quote,) I lose all respect. Sorry if when my opinion differs it upsets you...

Jon

[fumbducker]

Originally Posted by bwhip

Wow. I'm really shocked by some of the responses here. I don't think Chain was out of line in calling the death of this officer a tragedy.

Yes, cops and firemen and soldiers know they are taking a higher level of risk than the rest of us, but thank God they're willing to! And I do believe that if any of them are killed while doing what they do for us that they should be honored and appreciated for their courage. The fact that they know what they are getting into does not make their service any less honorable, or in some cases, heroic.

B,
You are a father...did you not take risks raising your family? Will not your eventual death be a tragedy to your loved ones? Should your passing be honored less because you were not a policeman, fireman, or great soldier but merely just a hard working provider? I'm not disputing that a fallen fireman,policeman, or soldier should not be honored for the risks they accept with the job...just Chain's ignorant remark that, "The notion that a police officer and a fisherman should share the same stature among his peers in his community..." Is beyond me!


J

[cichlid]

Its a shame when anyone dies!

The trooper chose to give chase. This was a personal decision he made at the time, there was other methods available to him.

Motorcyclists die all the time from bad drivers. These cases generally result in a fine for reckless driving. In this case the Motorcyclist lives and it will be very interesting to see how far the punishment goes.

[NinerPilot]

Hmmmm, ok. I have what I consider to be friends on both sides of this debate, and of course I am somewhat partial to the LEO side as it is my chosen profession, but Im going to say how I feel and I hope I dont hurt anyone's feelings on wither side.

First off... The whole preferential treatment thing. It is no secret that MOST of the time, LEOs will let other LEOs go with a verbal warning for a traffic infraction including speeding. Call it a perk, and all jobs have perks. If you are a burger flipper, chances are you get fed on duty, if you are a contractor, you get deals on personal builds Im sure, if you are a doctor, you have friends in the field that can take care of you and "trade" services if need be. Getting out of the occasional ticket is just a perk that we as police officers tend to get from time to time. Now I can tell you from experience that this is not always the case. Less than a year ago I was written a citation for speeding 10 over the limit by a TN Trooper. When he came up and gave me the ticket, I didnt say anything about "professional courtesy". I took it and paid the piper since I danced the dance. Like I said, most if not al jobs have perks, and this just happens to be one of ours as police officers, most of the time. Now if an officer never gives a warning, I dont expect one, but me personally, I only write a citation to maybe 1 out of 3 cars I stop. Now the 3 I let go may be a biker, cop, soldier, politebusiness man/woman , plumber, who knows? The only ryme or reason I have is that 100% of people who act like assholes get a ticket, other than that, Im looking for a reason to get you to slow your roll a bit.

Now as far as the trooper's death. Yes, it is a terrible loss that the trooper died. I personally cannot pin blame on the Busa Pilot for the officers death. Im my heart of hearts, I believe that the tire could have given just as easy on the way to roll call, or the next "routine" speeder. Now I would feel alot better If I knew for sure that the Busa Rider truely had no idea that the Trooper was back there, and was not actively running. Is the trooper a Hero? To me yes, as he gave his life and life's work to the job. Do I think that everyone should be expected to put him on a pedastal and bow to him? Of course not. Im sure that the Trooper knew what he was getting into every day when he went into work. Every time I go to work, I say a prayer, and tell my family that I love them as I walk out the door. I make peace with myself and my family, and they know that if I dont come home, I died doing what I love most likely.

As far as an officer's life being worth more than another, cant say I agree with that (I dont know if this was said or implied), but like it or not, LEO's and FF's put theirselves in harms way to protect others. Yes we do it voluntarily, but when someone, anyone, risks their life to help or safe others, that makes them a hero in my book, and losing a hero sucks.

I hope this makes sense as I am sleep deprived as I write this. I know that LTL isnt a cop hater by any means. I know that Chain is not a cop who only sees things the "blue way". But more than anything, I know that this is a timeless debate that will go on for ages. Maybe we can just bridge the gap here.
Chris

[SomeStrangeGuy]

well put Chris

[oldfogey]

Originally Posted by ND4SPD

6 one way, half dozen the other. One cop's dead, period. Give the man his respect and move on.

Hear, hear!

[Chain]

Originally Posted by fumbducker

"Give up," all you want...was the above not posted by you? "Critical eye? I'm only responding to what you posted...

No. What you're doing is taking what was essentially a twelve paragraph position paper (i.e. an op/ed piece), parsing out the passages you wanted to use, then ran them together as if they were one continuous passage. You changed the context in which I said what I said, therefore I can only conclude that you're unwilling or incapable of reading my stated position with a critical eye. Maybe it's personal, I don't know what your problem is with me.

Originally Posted by fumbducker

But when you get a big head, (pun intended,) and make noise like you did that officers of the law are are a higher being, (see above quote,) I lose all respect. Sorry if when my opinion differs it upsets you...

As for the rest of your rambling, emotional diatribe, well, the personal dig about my head size is trite indeed.

Try to come up with something more fresh, will you?

[Chain]

Originally Posted by fumbducker

Chain's ignorant remark that, "The notion that a police officer and a fisherman should share the same stature among his peers in his community..." Is beyond me!

You can't help yourself, can you fumb?

Here is the whole quote. Pay attention to the bolded passage, it's rather important in that it totally changes the context of my statement:

"The notion that a police officer and a fisherman should share the same stature among his peers in his community is beyond me, at least as it relates to how said community should remember him when he is killed protecting them."

[luvtolean]

Originally Posted by NinerPilot

Hmmmm, ok. I have what I consider to be friends on both sides of this debate, and of course I am somewhat partial to the LEO side as it is my chosen profession, but Im going to say how I feel and I hope I dont hurt anyone's feelings on wither side.

First off... The whole preferential treatment thing. It is no secret that MOST of the time, LEOs will let other LEOs go with a verbal warning for a traffic infraction including speeding. Call it a perk, and all jobs have perks. If you are a burger flipper, chances are you get fed on duty, if you are a contractor, you get deals on personal builds Im sure, if you are a doctor, you have friends in the field that can take care of you and "trade" services if need be. Getting out of the occasional ticket is just a perk that we as police officers tend to get from time to time. Now I can tell you from experience that this is not always the case. Less than a year ago I was written a citation for speeding 10 over the limit by a TN Trooper. When he came up and gave me the ticket, I didnt say anything about "professional courtesy". I took it and paid the piper since I danced the dance. Like I said, most if not al jobs have perks, and this just happens to be one of ours as police officers, most of the time. Now if an officer never gives a warning, I dont expect one, but me personally, I only write a citation to maybe 1 out of 3 cars I stop. Now the 3 I let go may be a biker, cop, soldier, politebusiness man/woman , plumber, who knows? The only ryme or reason I have is that 100% of people who act like assholes get a ticket, other than that, Im looking for a reason to get you to slow your roll a bit.

Now as far as the trooper's death. Yes, it is a terrible loss that the trooper died. I personally cannot pin blame on the Busa Pilot for the officers death. Im my heart of hearts, I believe that the tire could have given just as easy on the way to roll call, or the next "routine" speeder. Now I would feel alot better If I knew for sure that the Busa Rider truely had no idea that the Trooper was back there, and was not actively running. Is the trooper a Hero? To me yes, as he gave his life and life's work to the job. Do I think that everyone should be expected to put him on a pedastal and bow to him? Of course not. Im sure that the Trooper knew what he was getting into every day when he went into work. Every time I go to work, I say a prayer, and tell my family that I love them as I walk out the door. I make peace with myself and my family, and they know that if I dont come home, I died doing what I love most likely.

As far as an officer's life being worth more than another, cant say I agree with that (I dont know if this was said or implied), but like it or not, LEO's and FF's put theirselves in harms way to protect others. Yes we do it voluntarily, but when someone, anyone, risks their life to help or safe others, that makes them a hero in my book, and losing a hero sucks.

I hope this makes sense as I am sleep deprived as I write this. I know that LTL isnt a cop hater by any means. I know that Chain is not a cop who only sees things the "blue way". But more than anything, I know that this is a timeless debate that will go on for ages. Maybe we can just bridge the gap here.
Chris

I'm not a cop hater at all. My GF had just been hired as a cop when I started dating her! I mentioned it in another thread, but I recently filled out a recommendation for a good friend who wants to be a CHP officer.

I know lots of cops, am friends with some, and most will basically say the same as me. It's a job. They chose the career with the associated risks. Just like my brother did.

I happen to think all honest work is noble, and we need all types of services. From the guy that cleans out porta potties, to the super scientists and engineers. We need people to help us in emergency and we need people to feed us. We need people to police our streets so we are safe. Because of this, I don't really think it's any more tragic when a guy dies policing our streets, putting out a fire or fishing for salmon. It's a risk taken to do the job they like.

As far as the "killed protecting them"...first, how many cops would keep working without a paycheck? Not many.

And if you have to choose, do you want law and order, or food? If you choose law, you've never been real hungry...

It's just a risk of the job. Just like drowning, or electrocuting yourself in a lab at my work.

[Chain]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

...I don't really think it's any more tragic when a guy dies policing our streets, putting out a fire or fishing for salmon.

I agree with you, honest work is honorable no matter what vocation we're talking about.

But LTL, if it's your position that society ought to treat and/or memorialize a fallen solider who dies in combat in Iraq the same as, say, a construction worker from Omaha who falls to his death while roofing a house here, well, I guess we're at impasse.

I respect your right to speak your mind and have your opinion despite the fact I don't share in it. On a loosely related note, I'd hope you'd give me the benefit of the doubt as it relates to whether or not I've got some sort of elitist attitude toward public safety professionals (cops, firemen, our Armed Forces, etc). I'm really a pretty nice guy, not at all a cocky cop who looks down his nose at civilians or what they do - FWIW.

[Newfie TLR]

Originally Posted by ConqSoft

It doesn't matter. Their actions caused his death.

Originally Posted by Chain

snip...


The difference between a police officer and a fisherman is that the officer (for over 24 years in this trooper's case) was willing to put his life on the line not just for his wife and kids, but for society, each and every day he went out there to patrol his beat.

...snip...


He was willing to risk laying his life down for people he didn't know, good people like you. Like your brother.


...snip...

And yes, it most certainly was the fault of the guy on the bike, not the police officer who was duty-bound to try to apprehend him..

Him Too

Well F'ing said guys. Here Here.........

[NinerPilot]

Originally Posted by luvtolean

As far as the "killed protecting them"...first, how many cops would keep working without a paycheck? Not many.

I have been doing it for 2 years without a dime of pay... And honestly I know quite a few other officers, who work for free quite a bit, as in turn out a 40 hour time sheet, but really work 60 hours a week sometimes, just because they love what they do, and dont feel the need to be paid for every minute they are there.
Chris

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by NinerPilot

I have been doing it for 2 years without a dime of pay... And honestly I know quite a few other officers, who work for free quite a bit, as in turn out a 40 hour time sheet, but really work 60 hours a week sometimes, just because they love what they do, and dont feel the need to be paid for every minute they are there.
Chris

Hmmm, me thinks you need to charge that time so you can get another bike I recommend a 1000RR with good tires... Now where is that FedEx truck with my new tire... I know he is out there the tracker says so..

[G-Force Junkie]

Ninerpilot: Good post, but I have to disagree with one big point. Yes, all jobs have perks. But an LEO perk of getting out of infractions, mistemeners, and felonys is a far cry from getting $5 off a sheet of plywood or a free hamburger. That is a HUGE difference, and only fosters the division between LEO and the public. Call me crazy, but a local stop-n-rob giving free coffee to officers, excelent! Getting to comit felonys by carrying conceled, loaded handguns across state lines while you on vacation...thats not right nor equivelent to a free hamburger or sheet of plywood!

[Chain]

Originally Posted by G-Force Junkie

Ninerpilot: Good post, but I have to disagree with one big point. Yes, all jobs have perks. But an LEO perk of getting out of infractions, mistemeners, and felonys is a far cry from getting $5 off a sheet of plywood or a free hamburger. That is a HUGE difference, and only fosters the division between LEO and the public. Call me crazy, but a local stop-n-rob giving free coffee to officers, excelent! Getting to comit felonys by carrying conceled, loaded handguns across state lines while you on vacation...thats not right nor equivelent to a free hamburger or sheet of plywood!

Federal law now allows us to carry concealed all across the nation. But what's that have to do with the price of tea in China anyway?

C'mon Junkie, no LEO here (or anyone else I know) would advocate letting another cop off for anything other than a minor traffic infraction. I extend the same courtesy to the general public all the time, so there really is no disparity in treatment.