[CBRVFR]

Of the many track skills that I lack, this is the most frustrating. (And obvious..) Though my recent riding on the SV is teaching me to be more comfortable at faster corner speeds, I invariably slow too much, too soon after a fast section. After many years of street riding, it is hard to break those ingrained self preservation habits..

Coming into a turn at speed, I tend to

• let off the gas (usually too early)
• coast or approach the mark I SHOULD have waited for at partial throttle, ( here several better riders go by me like I'm standing still)
• downshift, and then brake (usually too much),
• downshift some more, finish braking,
• curse myself for slowng down too much, and turn in.
• Sometimes my self-loathing doesn't last the whole lap, and I do the same thing again!

Or if I attempt to brake later and harder while downshifting, I get a bunch of chatter somewhere - feels like the front but might have something to do with the downshifts.. Or general ham-handedness.

I was able to get past the fear aspect of this problem and learn the correct technique at Jim Hall's Kart racing school, but I spun out a lot in the process! Needless to say, I'd like to improve on the bike without crashing, and I can't help thinking a simpler approach would be better.

Should I just do all my braking in the higher gear and downshift several gears at the last moment before acceleration?

I'd like to hear what the more experenced riders, racers and instructors say; How do you approach turn 1?

[HondaGalToo]

Amen, brother! You just described how I approach turns after a high-speed straight! I also await wisdom....

Like you, I don't want to toss it to figure out how to go faster. One thing that did help me a lot at Grattan was using Jason Pridmore's method of downshifting. He doesn't "blip", but rather doesn't roll all the way off the throttle. Since the throttle is still cracked, simply pulling in the clutch increases the rpms, instead of blipping. It's the "blipless blip". Helped me, since if I'm squeezing the brake, I can't blip the throttle and not jerk the brake lever. Downshifts when not braking are smooth, but that doesn't help on those high speed approaches. Anyway, I digress...

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

Amen, brother! You just described how I approach turns after a high-speed straight!

Well, I did leave out the part where I yell at my fingers to let go of the brake lever... "Let GO, goddamit, I'm telling ya, we can make this!!" Sad but true, unfortunately..

[Red Rider]

Far be it for me to expound on this subject with any authority, but I know exactly what you're experiencing. I've found what works for me is to shorten the time frame between rolling off the throttle, braking, and downshifting. In doing so, I found myself actually going too slow through the turn and needing to accelerate before the apex. Try practicing by using the same braking point, but speed up your "business" (to quote Reg). With time, you'll probably find you can brake later and still get set up for the turn. Like I said...it works for me.

I, too, am waiting to hear what the fast(er) guys have to say...

[CBRVFR]

Red, are you re-engaging the clutch for each downshift to get the maximum engine-braking effect, or are you leaving all of that up to the brakes? ( The fronts only, I assume)

[Red Rider]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Red, are you re-engaging the clutch for each downshift to get the maximum engine-braking effect, or are you leaving all of that up to the brakes? ( The fronts only, I assume)

I try to roll off the gas quickly while braking and blipping the throttle and downshifting at the same time for each gear. I think some riders bang down more than one gear at a time though...

I've been working on this more than anything this year to improve my (late) braking as I used to do each thing separately (roll off...than brake...then downshift). My biggest problem is not blipping the throttle enough to match the revs when downshifting, and I end up getting rear wheel chatter as a reminder.

[half]

No expert on the subject either. I talk to myself alot when on the track. I try to setup each corner the same way on each lap. I make a huge effort to wait for my marker, then off the gas and on the brake, do all my downshifts at once, blip and easy out on the clutch. I guess the biggest thing is talking out loud inside my helmet. I constantly tell myself to be smooth. I have a raging case of PBS, (premature braking syndrome). Good topic, I can't wait to here from more people.

[sheepofblue]

Dumb question:
If you are outside your lean area if the back chatters a bit why is that an issue? It would seem that you are breaking with the front and unweighting the back so that would happen a bit under hard breaking You made the comment to me about watching the downshifts but the bike did not seem in the least unstable (most of the time I was not pushing hard trying to get used to things and not breaking near that hard)

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by sheepofblue

If you are outside your lean area if the back chatters a bit why is that an issue? It would seem that you are breaking with the front and unweighting the back so that would happen a bit under hard breaking

It's distracting and tends to scare the **** out of you the first time it happens, since you can't really tell if the forks or the shock is chattering. Meanwhile your brain is trying to convince you that all is lost and the bike isn't slowing the way it should, and it's just another sign from heaven that you're over your head, pal!

Of course, the way to get rid of the chatter is to put your shoulder into the turn and get on the gas.

[Heavy-Dee]

Huh. Good topic. I'm far from an expert, but I think I'm okay on the brakes considering my experience. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I think it really just comes down to practice, practice, practice. Getting that roll off, brake, blip, downshift ALL IN ONE MOTION is really very hard. I'm far from even remotely good at it, but I keep getting better. Truth be told I think doing it all the time on the street even when not really necessary has helped a lot.

I don't know, I could be full of ****. We'll see as Warbird Racing flys again tomorrow. CBRVFR I wish you were going to be there to help out bud. I'm shooting for the 1:18's maybe 1:17's after shodding the baby gix w/ some race DOT's.

I'm always concentrating on the aformentioned topic, but tomorrow maybe more so. Mostly, I'm determined to master the back "kink" at Nelson. That is where I'm going to make up most of my time and I'll be braking hard for T12. So this topic will come into play.

HD

[CBRVFR]

I think the "D" stands for "determined." Best luck tomorrow!

[abtech]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Should I just do all my braking in the higher gear and downshift several gears at the last moment before acceleration?

That's pretty much what I do. I try to stay on the gas until I hit my marker then roll off the gas and grab as much brake as possible (absolutely no coasting!!!). Right before I turn it in, I cluster the downshift(s). This requires a lot of knowledge of exactly what speed you are going vs what speed the engine needs to be turning through the downshifts. When I have gained neutral throttle in the "drive out gear", I throw it in and begin accelerating.

I am a true believer that engine braking is a waste of time, as the engine is for acceleration, while the brakes are for slowing the thing down. I also pick a point where I "absolutely, positively" have to be off the brakes for a particular corner and brake as hard as possible right to that point.

People who modulate their braking have added just one more thing to finesse while downshifting, turning/passing etc. and often brainfade into a lowside trying to "adjust" their entrance speed.

This is the way I learned, and you may or may not be comfortable with this technique, as there are certainly several ways to do it . . .

[sheepofblue]

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

It's distracting and tends to scare the **** out of you the first time it happens, since you can't really tell if the forks or the shock is chattering. Meanwhile your brain is trying to convince you that all is lost and the bike isn't slowing the way it should, and it's just another sign from heaven that you're over your head, pal!

Of course, the way to get rid of the chatter is to put your shoulder into the turn and get on the gas.

Interesting I thought nothing of it until you said something

[jetbdude]

Originally Posted by Red Rider

Far be it for me to expound on this subject with any authority, but I know exactly what you're experiencing. I've found what works for me is to shorten the time frame between rolling off the throttle, braking, and downshifting. In doing so, I found myself actually going too slow through the turn and needing to accelerate before the apex. Try practicing by using the same braking point, but speed up your "business" (to quote Reg). With time, you'll probably find you can brake later and still get set up for the turn. Like I said...it works for me.

I like that I'll try it next track day,

[CBRVFR]

Originally Posted by abtech

That's pretty much what I do. I try to stay on the gas until I hit my marker then roll off the gas and grab as much brake as possible (absolutely no coasting!!!). Right before I turn it in, I cluster the downshift(s). This requires a lot of knowledge of exactly what speed you are going vs what speed the engine needs to be turning through the downshifts. When I have gained neutral throttle in the "drive out gear", I throw it in and begin accelerating.

I am a true believer that engine braking is a waste of time, as the engine is for acceleration, while the brakes are for slowing the thing down. I also pick a point where I "absolutely, positively" have to be off the brakes for a particular corner and brake as hard as possible right to that point.

People who modulate their braking have added just one more thing to finesse while downshifting, turning/passing etc. and often brainfade into a lowside trying to "adjust" their entrance speed.

This is the way I learned, and you may or may not be comfortable with this technique, as there are certainly several ways to do it . . .

I want you to know that I've just read that 50 times. I'm going to try that, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Maybe I'll see you on the 17th or the 26th and you can tell me how I'm doing..

[TCD]

Originally Posted by abtech

I try to stay on the gas until I hit my marker then roll off the gas and grab as much brake as possible (absolutely no coasting!!!).

Does the clutch come in at this point?

[DEPO]

I love how so many have said, I am far from giving advise and once again, same here. This is not advise, this is what I was taught.

I was talking to a racer at Blackhawk and talking about this very same thing and he made some great points.

Abtech said it very well. Only two things should be happening on your bike during a track event or race...

You are either accelerating or braking, your bike should never, ever, be coasting, if you are coasting you are at the point of least control for the bike and the rider. The bike needs accelerating or braking to properly set suspension components.

The technique he was trying to have me use, which took a while and I am still uncomfortable with, but understand why it works is the following:

Accelerate up until your braking point, making as many gear changes as needed. At that first brake marker you are physically setting up your body for the next turn, bringing in the brake and while braking, using the clutch and completing as many downshifts as needed, once you are at the point of turn in you are releasing the brake and feathering out the clutch and accelerating at the same time. All a smooth and linear action.

One of the great advises to me was that in almost every case of turns unless it is a high speed corner, which usually does not require as much adjustment as the above mentioned, you can get away with second gear on most bikes, obiviously sprocket selections may make a difference but for me who is stock on my gearings and some cc differences, for most turns, because you will not lock yourself like you might out of first and will not have a slow drive off the line like you might in third. Plus you do not chance coming across the neutral and placing yourself in it.

I do not know if this is the perfect scenerio, but it is starting to allow me to come to a corner with a lot less actions.... Downshifting, engine braking, braking, gear selection, turning in, release of the brake, accelerating.

[abtech]

Originally Posted by TCD

Does the clutch come in at this point?

That depends on the speed before braking. For instance at the end of the straight at Grattan, I don't use the clutch until I begin the downshifts. This seems to help keep everything "loose" with the engine rolling at higher RPM in anticipation of the downshifts. If you pull in the clutch and use the brakes at the same time, the engine speed will drop to the point that you won't have a reference for matching engine speed to track speed when you begin downshifting.

[nhfirefighter13]

I just shot one of the Penguin Roadracing trackdays on Weds and had a chance to go on the trackwalk with Eric Wood, who teaches the advanced school. While I missed some of the conversation I did pick up some statements regarding this type of question.

****Keep in mind that I was only paying partial attention, and I'm sure he explained things better****

1. "If you blow the entry, nothing else matters." makes sense
2. You need to figure out what type of corner it is before you figure out the correct entry. ie: is it a corner that needs a lot of entry speed and late braking, or is it a drive corner that needs a lot of accel. out of the exit. Apparentlly, corners are set up as one or the other and you need to figure out if you'll gain more time by going in really fast or by exiting really fast.
3. "take bigger risks where the consequences are smaller."
4. If your bike is upright, there is no reason to be anywhere but at full wide open throttle.

That's about all I can remember that isn't specific to NHIS.
If none of that makes sense, just ignore me as I'm sure I got at least part of that screwed up.

[l'timbré]

Wow I could have wrote that message

Originally Posted by CBRVFR

Of the many track skills that I lack, this is the most frustrating. (And obvious..) Though my recent riding on the SV is teaching me to be more comfortable at faster corner speeds, I invariably slow too much, too soon after a fast section. After many years of street riding, it is hard to break those ingrained self preservation habits..

Coming into a turn at speed, I tend to

• let off the gas (usually too early)
• coast or approach the mark I SHOULD have waited for at partial throttle, ( here several better riders go by me like I'm standing still)
• downshift, and then brake (usually too much),
• downshift some more, finish braking,
• curse myself for slowng down too much, and turn in.
• Sometimes my self-loathing doesn't last the whole lap, and I do the same thing again!

Or if I attempt to brake later and harder while downshifting, I get a bunch of chatter somewhere - feels like the front but might have something to do with the downshifts.. Or general ham-handedness.

I was able to get past the fear aspect of this problem and learn the correct technique at Jim Hall's Kart racing school, but I spun out a lot in the process! Needless to say, I'd like to improve on the bike without crashing, and I can't help thinking a simpler approach would be better.

Should I just do all my braking in the higher gear and downshift several gears at the last moment before acceleration?

I'd like to hear what the more experenced riders, racers and instructors say; How do you approach turn 1?