When to switch to race tires?

Scratch · 08-28-2005, 1:28 AM

Just curious, when did everyone decide they needed to start riding with race rubber on the track? How do you know when you're ready for that extra grip (and extra hefty price tag)? What does a dedicated race tire allow you to do that a Corsa or Power cannot? I ask because I'm obviously curious and I get some conflicting reports from some that I've spoken with.

Some say you should switch when you get to an advanced level in trackday riding, some say intermediate, what say you?

If it's been covered before I'm sorry, but some new/fresh perspectives are always welcome. Especially given how far street tires seem to have come (corsa/power) lately.

HondaGalToo · 08-28-2005, 10:00 AM

Good question. Personally, I won't switch unless I someday get a dedicated track bike. The Diablo Corsas or Pilot Powers have plenty of grip for all but advanced riders/racers, IMHO. Keep in mind that if you switch to race tires, whether it be slicks or something like the Supercorsas, you can't ride in the rain.

Red Rider · 08-28-2005, 10:06 AM

For me it was a progression of tire selection from street/track (Sportecs) tires to DOT race (Rennsports) tires to slicks. If you ride hard enough to put enough heat into a race tire, you'll benefit from the grip...

Hammer · 08-28-2005, 11:19 AM

About the time you start sliding the rear coming out of a turn you will have no problem forking over the extra bones for race grip. Some people ride good and fast with DOT tires some prefer/need the extra grip that the race tires offer. I would not say that when you move up in a class should be a determining factor but when your riding abilities deem it necessary.

Baketech · 08-28-2005, 1:34 PM

I'm struggling with this very question right now too...

Nickelii · 08-28-2005, 2:17 PM

I switched when I became a trackday regular and less of a street rider. You can use DOT race tires on the street, I would just be careful as there is no way you'll get the heat into them that they need to work properly. I have ridden Dots' in the rain plenty of times, at the track a few times and even one time in a terrible storm from Mid-Ohio to Detroit after the AMA races. You just need to exercise caution IMHO.

WetShrub · 08-28-2005, 2:19 PM

I think he dedicated track bike idea is a good one. That's when I started running race rubber. Or if you happen to purchase an extra set of wheels. Running race rubber on the street is no good. They will NEVER heat up enough and therefore never be as good on the street as a street tire.

That being said, you could race on diablo corsa but the biggest downfall would be how early you could get on the gas and braking. Also if it's a real hot day like over 100, those tires will get greasy much earlier than a race tire. Race tires will let you brake later and harder or even add some trail braking in there too.

As people said above, if you spin up the rear at all exiting a turn it might be a good idea to at least try some DOT race rubber like a Supercorsa or something similar. Just remember that it will be a bad street tire and you will use up all the good heat cycles going to the grocery store and back. I would pick up an extra set of e-bay'd wheels and throw the race rubber on those.

HondaGalToo · 08-28-2005, 3:31 PM

Good idea on the extra set of wheels. If I wasn't so lazy and was willing to change wheels everytime I went to a trackday, I'd throw Supercorsas or Pilot races on the extra set. That's a good option.

smkeatr · 08-28-2005, 8:40 PM

I decided during my first track day when my BT010 G's "let me down" and overheated halfway through the day resulting in a lowside.

From then on, I obtained some expert advice from my "track coach" and race team owner as well as the Michelin rep for this region (Frank Kinsey). I've had M2's/S2's on my bike ever since. I've not been to the track in a year and a half but when I go back, a new set of race rubber will be installed. When I returned for then next few track days, I had only one instance of insecurity with the front and after that, it was loaded in the truck. Don't skimp on rubber, it's not worth the money to repair the bike, your leathers, boots and possibly medical bills.

I'm not that fast but when the rear slid out from underneath me at about 40mph in 4th gear, not exactly hard on the throttle either, it was time for some stickier rubber. I believe the comment was made to my coach "get me the best rubber money can buy so I don't dump my street bike at the track ever again".

Side note: The rash on my ass through my leathers took weeks to heal and it was in a very bad spot that reminded me of my tire decision every time I sat on the toilet.

02FBlade · 09-12-2005, 3:28 PM

when you need more grip is the quick answer. Keep in mind chassis setup can make you think you have no grip...it's all related along with rider style. I found more grip just my moving my butt back an inch on exits on was spinning out of of.

ReaperAZ · 09-12-2005, 3:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baketech

I'm struggling with this very question right now too...

+1

luvtolean · 09-12-2005, 3:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetShrub

I think he dedicated track bike idea is a good one. That's when I started running race rubber. Or if you happen to purchase an extra set of wheels. Running race rubber on the street is no good. They will NEVER heat up enough and therefore never be as good on the street as a street tire.

Yeah, exactly. If you have an extra set of wheels, or a dedicated track bike, spoon on the race stuff. If not, run "premium" trackday/street tires.

Caveat, if you're going to do a 2 or 3 day event, you might as well put on race shoes as you are going to have to change tires before and after anyways.

After my first trackday, I had no desire to ride on street rubber on a track. It was a 100+ day at B-willow, and I could spin it all over the damned place. FWIW, I was knee down in my first session, and did seem to be a pretty "advanced" newbie.

ReaperAZ · 09-12-2005, 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

... FWIW, I was knee down in my first session, and did seem to be a pretty "advanced" newbie.

I felt the same way and a lot of people seriously did not believe it was my first trackday. This past weekend a lot of guys I ended up passing were asking me if I race and am just riding my street bike on the track. If I do infact turn the 600RR into a track only bike, I'll probably just mount up some "race" tires.

Scratch · 09-12-2005, 5:10 PM

**** I guess we're all in kinda the same boat. Got bumped to "I" on my 2nd ever track day, and then of course low sided on my 3rd

. I asked Matt Drucker of MD racing this same question 2 weekends ago. He said that street tires are called that for a reason, they get to a point and then just kinda let go. He said that "premium" street tires (Power's, Corsa's etc.) are all well and good, but if you're ready to push yourself and the bike to the next level you'll definately benefit from the added grip of race rubber. Not really the best answer but then again it's not an easy question to answer for someone else.

I think I'm going to make the switch just for a little added insurance. Might have to wait a little while since tire warmers are a good idea if you're gonna make the switch and they're not cheap. Then again neither is race rubber, but if it keeps you from landing on your ass then I guess it's all good.

luvtolean · 09-12-2005, 6:53 PM

You don't need warmers for DOT "race" compound tires.

Slicks you technically don't either...but highly recommend it.

SouLJahz · 09-12-2005, 7:43 PM

Slicks will also allow you to power out of a corner sooner, so if you get to a point when the back end keeps slipping out from you coming out of a corner, give the slicks a go.

Scratch · 09-12-2005, 9:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

You don't need warmers for DOT "race" compound tires.

Slicks you technically don't either...but highly recommend it.

What are some good examples of DOT race compound tires?

Scratch · 09-12-2005, 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouLJahz

Slicks will also allow you to power out of a corner sooner, so if you get to a point when the back end keeps slipping out from you coming out of a corner, give the slicks a go.

Oh it slipped alright. All the way around, till the bike was laying in the middle of the track facing the opposite direction with me about 20ft from it.

Zippy · 09-12-2005, 11:30 PM

You will just have to work on delivering that drive with a little more smoothness. You can't let all the horses through the gate at once. You can have the same thing happen on dot race tires.

Are you going to Autobahn at the end of the month? If so, I might see you there. I'm going Sunday and Monday.

Scratch · 09-13-2005, 9:36 AM

Zippy-

Yeah working on that whole smooth thing. Coming off the street I'm so used to full on gas and full on brakes it's not even funny. I have to un-learn some things and get some good habits going. Think the crash may have been a blessing in disguise, just gonna take it easy and work on consistent lines and smooth corner entry/exit.

Yes I'm shooting for Autobahn at the end of the month. If I go it will likely be Sat. & Sun. You A guys will have the track all to yourselves on Mon., that's gotta be sweet. If you're there Sun. stop by and say hi if you wish, I'll be on the blk/grey bike with the rashed up right side.

luvtolean · 09-13-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch

What are some good examples of DOT race compound tires?

Dunlop's 208GP-A is a good tire.

Sorry, I don't have personal experience with any other brands. My racer friends and myself always ran Dunlops.

Zippy · 09-13-2005, 11:24 AM

I'll find you and say Hi! It's gonna be another great weekend at the track. As many as I've done, I just can't wait!

Zippy · 09-13-2005, 11:36 AM

I think that a little track crash, where you didn't get hurt, could be a blessing in disguise. It can be a wake up call to get your rough edges smoothed over and work on the flow more.

It is going to be sweet on Monday. I am going to keep working on endurance at the gym until then. This is my last time for the year, and I want to make the most of it. On an open day, you can stay out if you are in the groove, and keep improving, as long as you have the stamina for it.

Sunday is the North Course. Have you done that before? It is really short at 1.4 miles. You will learn it quickly. It has a couple of interesting twists to it, like turn 1. I love that little track.

02FBlade · 09-13-2005, 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvtolean

You don't need warmers for DOT "race" compound tires.

Slicks you technically don't either...but highly recommend it.

True. Not a requirement but I would say they are definitely needed!!! Think of the track time you waste warming up the tires completely. At least 3-4 laps for cold dots or slicks until full temp....when w/ warmers & 1 lap they're ready to stick. Less heat cycles, less chance of wrecking due to cold tires.... Buy them if you can afford em!!!

Trackho · 09-13-2005, 2:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 02FBlade

True. Not a requirement but I would say they are definitely needed!!! Think of the track time you waste warming up the tires completely. At least 3-4 laps for cold dots or slicks until full temp....when w/ warmers & 1 lap they're ready to stick. Less heat cycles, less chance of wrecking due to cold tires.... Buy them if you can afford em!!!

Pending on ambient temp 75F+, slicks easily heat up in 1 lap. I use the warmers whenst racing, but rarely on a trackday unless temps are in the 60s--3-4 laps??? You gotta be kidding

ccwilli3 · 09-13-2005, 2:23 PM

I'd say that if you are repeatedly spinning the rear in the B group at B group pace, DOTs/Slicks aren't gonna fix anything for you. I'd call them a bandaid for other issues. Spinning the rear at a b group pace is insane and shows deficiency in a riding style. Now, if you somehow get shoe horned in the B group and you are running A group pace on street tires, well then thats totally different.

Run DOTs if you can, but definitly look at your own riding style and suspension setup and adjustments to decipher why you are spinning the rear, etc...