Is this technique sound?

leelover · 10-29-2006, 12:03 AM

I haven't made it to a trackday yet, but I have been practicing techniques as much as possible. There is alot of progress that can be made in the area of smoothness, even at slow speeds. Most of the curves or corners I have available are low speed first gear types. I am finding that I am usually working through the 3000 to 3500 rpm surge area on my 929. It seems much easier to smoothly modulate the throttle if I rest the heel of my hand on the bar end and operate the twist grip like a dial with my fingers. Does anyone else do this? Is it a good idea down the line as speeds increase?

rotorblade · 10-29-2006, 1:18 AM

I know of some people who do operate the throttle like that, but I would just suggest to do it in any manner that minimilizes input on the bars: meaning however you can effectivily control the gas and brakes without adding ANY additional weight or influence on the bars is the best. Working that low in the RPM band you probably wont run into any problem regardless of your technique, but as speed and your rev range increase so your margin of error decreases.

Baketech · 10-29-2006, 6:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leelover

I am finding that I am usually working through the 3000 to 3500 rpm surge area on my 929. It seems much easier to smoothly modulate the throttle...

This is not a throttle modulation issue, it's a gear selection issue...

Select the proper gear and you will find it much easier to be smooth through the corner...

HondaGalToo · 10-29-2006, 7:03 AM

Yeah, that's low rpms. On the highway, conserving gas, I'll run that low, otherwise I try to keep it up at least over 5k. On the track I'll run 6k-9k, I think. That allows for better throttle modulation.
I'm trying to picture how you're holding the throttle. Sounds like your hand isn't at the usual angle that it would be if you were traditionally gripping the throttle? Not sure I'm picturing it right. On the track, I find I need to hold on! Do you blip the throttle when you downshift? If not, that would be a good technique to work on.

FrenchieR6 · 10-29-2006, 7:23 AM

Practice makes wonders. I read alot of books and do alot of track days and still not half to where I us to be. I need practice and a good trainer.....

And, 10 years younger.

leelover · 10-29-2006, 8:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaGalToo

Yeah, that's low rpms. On the highway, conserving gas, I'll run that low, otherwise I try to keep it up at least over 5k. On the track I'll run 6k-9k, I think. That allows for better throttle modulation.
I'm trying to picture how you're holding the throttle. Sounds like your hand isn't at the usual angle that it would be if you were traditionally gripping the throttle? Not sure I'm picturing it right. On the track, I find I need to hold on! Do you blip the throttle when you downshift? If not, that would be a good technique to work on.

Can't shift any lower this is Slooow stuff, I'm on the road now!
I am still gripping the twist grip, but lightly. My main right hand connection is with the heel of my hand and little finger mostly on the bar end weight. I can separate any body movement from inadvertant throttle input. Maybe this is only usefull for low speed on/off throttle tight stuff?

Good point on the blipping, I did this way back when I raced off road bikes, and have heel&toed when autocrossing and rally driving (not enough of either, btw

), but it is taking longer to be smooth at it than I thought it would. Hence the need to practice the small stuff so I will have less to mess up at the track. Sure I won't lack for stuff in that vein!

bwhip · 10-29-2006, 8:31 AM

Your hand position will also change depending on whether the turns are right or left, if you are leaning off properly. Staying relaxed for subtle input is the key, and you also want to make sure that whatever the nuances of your hand position on the throttle, that you are in position for immediate access to the brake lever, should something unexpected occur - especially on the street!

leelover · 10-29-2006, 9:10 AM

Thanks for the good info, all!

I just realized something! This is My Technique!
I gotta get to work, write a book, make a dvd, maybe a school!
I think I'll call it "The heel at the end of the bar system"

, well the "Opti-grab" has already been done!

HondaGalToo · 10-29-2006, 9:59 AM

I guess it also depends on how big your hands are. If I had my little finger on the bar end, I wouldn't have the part of my hand between my thumb and index finger against the other end. I like having my hand, the part between by thumb and index finger, right up against the "grip stop". Dunno what you call it, but the flanged end of the grip. I feel I have much better control that way. I wouldn't have the same control with my hand out by the bar end. After you get good at blipping and downshifting, another useful technique is to be able to simultaneously brake and blip. I recently learned that to make this smoother, it helps to use the brake at the end farthest from the bar end. I moved my two braking fingers to the left a bit, and it helped a lot in smoothing this technique out. That was a suggestion I got at the Schwantz School and it made a big difference.

kawboy69 · 10-29-2006, 12:58 PM

I like to keep a good firm grip on the bar just because of head shakes, it can rip that bar right out of your hand or even cause you to blip the throttle while in a turn pushing it.

gt702 · 10-30-2006, 10:42 AM

Some of the schools are teaching to hold your elbow out/up and twist the throttle like you are rotating your whole forearm (not sure of the best way to describe it) instead of making the movement with the wrist alone. Idea is that you use the smaller muscles and can be more controlled with your movements resulting in finer throttle inputs and maybe a little less subject to body movements.

Might be something to try, though you will need to support your body more with your knees ... maybe that is a good thing.

*Quick 26* · 10-30-2006, 11:02 AM

leelover · 10-30-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kawboy69

I like to keep a good firm grip on the bar just because of head shakes, it can rip that bar right out of your hand or even cause you to blip the throttle while in a turn pushing it.

Do you have a sterring damper on your bike?
Does anyone still experiance head shake with dampers?

davef · 10-30-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leelover

Do you have a sterring damper on your bike?
Does anyone still experiance head shake with dampers?

Yes

slanger · 10-30-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leelover

Do you have a sterring damper on your bike?
Does anyone still experiance head shake with dampers?

i experienced headshake on my bike with a damper, but i think that was bc of the geometry i had set up. running the taller 195/70 dunlop slicks raises the rear... it helps out great in the corners and exit of corners but i did experience a lot of headshake and thats why i got the damper.

even at 3500 rpm in first gear isnt fast at all... i run a very tight hairpin turn in second gear around 5K rpm and try to never use first gear while racing.

if you are still going that slow but want to feel more comfy try changing your gearing... maybe a tooth down in the front and up one or two in the rear. everyone says its a wheelie beast when they do that... but just ride it normally and you will be fine. you will lose from your top end but it will raise your rpm at slower speeds. also if you are wearing full gear dont be scared to lean the bike over farther.

leelover · 10-30-2006, 11:34 PM

I want to thank you all for the ideas and info on this subject!
I can see there is alot more to work on. So I would like to extend the invitation to all who participated in this thread to attend a No-expense paid trip to Fla for my "Heel at the end of the bar" symposium!
First day: We convene on Beautiful Sanibel Island to experience all EIGHT of the islands great curves! Hang at the beach, etc. After putting the bikes away we adjourn to Doc Ford's Sanibel Rum Bar. I will then hold court on a subject I REALLY do know, "Creative BS ing about how fast I usta be".
Second day: We go to the BMW/Triumph dealer in town (they allow test rides

), I am sure they will value the road test info we can provide! Then head to Dwyers Irish pub, Irish pubs are always fun! Maybe someone could do an Irish karaoke version of "some" country singer

?
If you can stay for they advanced class, we take the Key West Express Catamaran to Key West and rent scooters! No further itinerary required

Sign up early, space is limited!

slanger · 10-31-2006, 12:39 AM

on your technique... i usually just twist the **** out of the throttle as when i hit apex..... if it spins up, i dont twist it quite so fast.

kawboy69 · 10-31-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leelover

Do you have a sterring damper on your bike?
Does anyone still experiance head shake with dampers?

Yes I do have a damper , but I sometimes still get them but the are lite because the damper is working..

leelover · 10-31-2006, 8:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slanger

on your technique... i usually just twist the **** out of the throttle as when i hit apex..... if it spins up, i dont twist it quite so fast.

YeeHaw!! Twist and shout! or Splat?

leelover · 10-31-2006, 8:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kawboy69

Yes I do have a damper , but I sometimes still get them but the are lite because the damper is working..

Thanks for answering that one straight forward! After I asked that I was reminded of all the stuff I read when I did the "steering damper search" I don't want to be resposible for getting that going again!

nedro · 10-31-2006, 11:38 AM

O.K. I'll be the one who says it. I don't think it is a good idea at all to rest your wrist in the bar end and use your fingers to modulate the throttle in any type of competition situation. I think you should get used to using the craddle of your hand between the thumb and index finger. And it doesn't matter if you curl your last two fingers around the throttle or not. That's up to you. Most racers talk about using the last two fingers for the throttle while braking. I could never get used to that. I like all four fingers over the brake even if I'm not using my entire hand for braking. Rossi covers the front brake with all four fingers also (well, the fourth is dangling because his hands are small).
BTW, those low speed turns you are practicing are great for your local Walmart, but it won't help you on a track that is a minimum of 35 feet across with the slowest turns being about 40 to 50 MPH.

Red Rider · 10-31-2006, 12:00 PM

First off, you want to eliminate as much of the surging as possible by reducing any slack in the throttle cables. A Power Commander will also help to reduce the surging. As for grip, I use all 4 fingers unless braking. It helps if you keep your arm(s) loose by supporting your weight through your legs and abs. This will make the throttle less sensitive to your body and road imputs.

Since you're offering to pay our way, is the Mucky Duck bar still on the tip of Captiva? Last time I was there was in the spring of '76. Ended up in the reeds trying to find my way home one evening.

There was nothing around the place but sand and birds back then. Sorry....I'm reminisicing again.

leelover · 10-31-2006, 12:55 PM

Redrider, Yup Mucky Duck is still there! The islands have changed a WHOLE lot though

! I said "NO-expense paid", btw! If you are countin on ME paying, you might be a little disapointed in what I am able to afford for accomadations! Though, the water view and fresh air included in the under the Causeway bridge package are pretty sweet this time of year! No See'ums are no charge!