[bladeracer]

This _may_ work on touring bikes with a rear weight bias but on sportsbikes there is so little weight over the rear tyre that in an emergency stop it's next to impossible to modulate it safely.
Using the rear brake is far more likely to get you into trouble than simply learning to use the front efficiently.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by muddysteel

because, as already written, the front brake can brake more (up to 75% more) than the rear brake can.

This is incorrect as the front brake can effectively brake _100%_ - and should do so.

[UcantCATCHme]

Originally Posted by muddysteel

LOL - my lessons learned is becoming a critique on braking (and in this case, my braking). Perhaps an appropriate "How To" article by some willing contributor??


Huh?!? You mean not all motorcyclists play the piano, harmonica, AND the drums at the same time already?!?!?

Seriously, some more good points on using front vs. rear break only..I believe it's clear: Don't use the rear brake, alone, to emergency stop.

However, you should NOT go the other way, and use the front brake only in an emergency. MODULATED braking with BOTH brakes is the best way to manage an EMERGENCY stop.

By MODULATED, I mean as hard as you can without locking up/losing control. This, in practice, will translate into applying more front brake than rear brake - because, as already written, the front brake can brake more (up to 75% more) than the rear brake can.

The reason for using both brakes is the for the same reason ABS exists: It's not about stopping faster, it's about stopping better, under control..Both wheels biting and slowing down means you're going to maintain better control - allowing you to aim for your "escape" route that you are always planning for (everyone does SEPE, right? Search, Evaluate, Plan, Execute).

Sorry man I wasn't trying to come off like i was critiqing you at all, and i do agree both brakes are good at emergency stops. My only point was to add to what both you and bladeracer said in that, both brakes at low speeds is easy with practice. Just like they teach in safety school, all i wanted to show was given a higher speed stop the difficulty of performing multiple tasks while environment is changing and your butt is puckering.

I was aiming this towards the newer riders, who my even practice stops but when put in that situation for the first time will most likely do it wrong. I am sure you will agree with your pedigree of course .

What is preach is no way wrong, and i've heard it alot just trying to shed light on some other perspectives relative to physics.

[UcantCATCHme]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

This is incorrect as the front brake can effectively brake _100%_ - and should do so.

Seems like im on the same page as you blade, but they do teach both brakes in safety course.

Maybe you forget some people dont ride sportbikes for SPEED

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by UcantCATCHme

Seems like im on the same page as you blade, but they do teach both brakes in safety course.

Maybe you forget some people dont ride sportbikes for SPEED

They may teach it in the course but that doesn't mean it's the most effective or even the correct way to do it.
Speed isn't relevant to it.
Using the rear brake in an emergency stop _requires_ concentrating on not locking it up (which is so easy because it has no weight on it to keep the wheel turning). The front stops harder the harder you use it and becomes harder to lock up the more weight you transfer onto it. On modern sportsbikes the front brake works so well it can actually be more likely you'll flip the bike over than lock the wheel.

[muddysteel]

Originally Posted by UcantCATCHme

Sorry man I wasn't trying to come off like i was critiqing you at all, and i do agree both brakes are good at emergency stops.

Don't apologize - I like peeps who get enough passion on a point to sound off - and what you wrote made it clear (to me) you're offering a viewpoint to help drive home how important you believe proper braking style is!

Originally Posted by UcantCATCHme

I was aiming this towards the newer riders, who my even practice stops but when put in that situation for the first time will most likely do it wrong. I am sure you will agree with your pedigree of course .

Now I'm a dog?!?!?!?!? Or just an old fart who's been around the block (not to mention slide the pavement!)?!? j/k

(I do like getting to the other end of the twisties, popping my lid off, and having at least one Gen-X-or-Y say, "Damn! You're an old guy!" "Yeah, don't mean I can't go fast now, does it?", is my usual retort..)

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by honorcode3

I hear that everyone falls at least once, is this true?

No.
And there is no reason to have to crash.

If you are a racer and havent crashed then unless you are winning every race then you probably arent going hard enough.

But as a street rider there is no need to push limits and no reason that you should crash.
Of cause you can have a crash and there be nothing you could do to avoid it, but even most accidents where you might not legally be at fault you probably could still have avoided or at least minimised the damage by some good defensive techniques.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

This _may_ work on touring bikes with a rear weight bias but on sportsbikes there is so little weight over the rear tyre that in an emergency stop it's next to impossible to modulate it safely.
Using the rear brake is far more likely to get you into trouble than simply learning to use the front efficiently.

You can modulate it safely!
Just that the modulation to the rear will be 0


Yes there will be periods of time during an emergency stop where there is potential for rear braking, but most people only have so much brain power to use in a situation. This is often said to be you have a $1 to spend - but can put cents towards various tasks. In an emergency stop you probably want 90c on the front brake and 10c on checking for other dangers. To use the rear brake to any useful amount probably costs you 50c as its more likely to lock up and hence needs more "feel" to use well. But spending 50c to get 10% of braking isnt a good investment of your brain.
Sure if you are Rossi then you use every bit of the bike you can.
But for most people who dont practice an emergency stop, when it happens you are best off putting all your braking "thought power" into the front. Id argue that you probably are better off not worrying about gear changes for the same reason - if it is that bit an emergency you want to stop and better off with the small downside of being in the wrong gear or heck even forgetting the clutch and stalling.

If you practice and are good with the feel of the front brake under very hard stops then you can start worrying about the rear or downshifts.
But for the average (not just novice!) if it is an emergency you want to stop - all your brain and braking is best in that right hand!

[muddysteel]

Originally Posted by dicknose

But for most people who dont practice an emergency stop, when it happens you are best off putting all your braking "thought power" into the front. Id argue that you probably are better off not worrying about gear changes for the same reason - if it is that bit an emergency you want to stop and better off with the small downside of being in the wrong gear or heck even forgetting the clutch and stalling.

If you practice and are good with the feel of the front brake under very hard stops then you can start worrying about the rear or downshifts.
But for the average (not just novice!) if it is an emergency you want to stop - all your brain and braking is best in that right hand!

How the heck can you reason this way? I mean, I get what you're writing: In an emergency, try to minimize your "thinking" and just react..

What you wrote seems to encourage a mind set that says do not worry about practicing emergency stops - by just focusing on using the front brake you should do OK. Maybe this isn't what you intended to write - but that's how it reads to me..

If you don't learn how to do those emergency stops using both brakes (and downshifting!), you are NOT training for the crash that (according to your prior post) has no reason to happen. And that means those defensive skills you mentioned that should help minimize the damage (in the crash that ought not to happen) won't be there..

Crap. I just contributed to moving my own post further off-topic..

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by muddysteel

How the heck can you reason this way? I mean, I get what you're writing: In an emergency, try to minimize your "thinking" and just react..

What you wrote seems to encourage a mind set that says do not worry about practicing emergency stops - by just focusing on using the front brake you should do OK. Maybe this isn't what you intended to write - but that's how it reads to me..

If you don't learn how to do those emergency stops using both brakes (and downshifting!), you are NOT training for the crash that (according to your prior post) has no reason to happen. And that means those defensive skills you mentioned that should help minimize the damage (in the crash that ought not to happen) won't be there..

Crap. I just contributed to moving my own post further off-topic..

Because that's correct. Emergency braking should only use the front brake. Definately practise emergency stops all the time but only with the front brake. Do not ever bother downshifting in an emergency stop. It burns up your concentration for _zero_ benefit.

[denzee]

Originally Posted by dicknose

You can modulate it safely!
Just that the modulation to the rear will be 0


Yes there will be periods of time during an emergency stop where there is potential for rear braking, but most people only have so much brain power to use in a situation. This is often said to be you have a $1 to spend - but can put cents towards various tasks. In an emergency stop you probably want 90c on the front brake and 10c on checking for other dangers. To use the rear brake to any useful amount probably costs you 50c as its more likely to lock up and hence needs more "feel" to use well. But spending 50c to get 10% of braking isnt a good investment of your brain.
Sure if you are Rossi then you use every bit of the bike you can.
But for most people who dont practice an emergency stop, when it happens you are best off putting all your braking "thought power" into the front. Id argue that you probably are better off not worrying about gear changes for the same reason - if it is that bit an emergency you want to stop and better off with the small downside of being in the wrong gear or heck even forgetting the clutch and stalling.

If you practice and are good with the feel of the front brake under very hard stops then you can start worrying about the rear or downshifts.
But for the average (not just novice!) if it is an emergency you want to stop - all your brain and braking is best in that right hand!

Well said dicknose. We finally agree on something. Experience certainly still plays a role but generally concentrating on the maximum application of front brake is best although most have never been near maximum on their front and don't realize how much stopping power is available to them.

[dicknose]

Originally Posted by muddysteel

What you wrote seems to encourage a mind set that says do not worry about practicing emergency stops - by just focusing on using the front brake you should do OK. Maybe this isn't what you intended to write - but that's how it reads to me..

On a car forum I encourage people with ABS to practice stops in the wet!

I think people should practice hard braking. In some ways its the most important skill you can have, but its often the one you use the least!

Actually probably the best thing we could say is not "use this brake or that brake" - but actually "find a road with some room and no one around and practice"

If you don't learn how to do those emergency stops using both brakes (and downshifting!), you are NOT training for the crash that (according to your prior post) has no reason to happen.

No - my argument is more
First learn to do it with just the front
Then if you want learn to do it with both
Then learn to downshift etc

If someone is keen and does practice and learn then it doesnt hurt that they spend a few weeks just on the front and the next dozen years on both brakes!

But its far more dangerous to suggest to people to use both, they dont practice and then when they need it they have just enough thought to go "oh must use both" and wonder why they both lock the rear and under utilised the front brakes. Maybe kick it down a gear, get surprised when the rear locks and loose focus on their main job - stopping the bike!

But even if you get to "using both" then on most bikes you will also get to the stage that your emergency braking will end up with 0 rear braking because the rear wheel is totally unweighted (either in the air or barely touching on a lot of rear suspension travel)
The max possible gain isnt huge. So unless you are Rossi and need that extra bit to outbrake someone else and you do this day in day out, you are still probably better off using just the front.

Now to balance this out - some people get into trouble using just the front. Ive seen some new riders use just the front and when combined with some other bad habits you can get ugly results. Classic is turning the bars approaching a giveway where they will turn and trying to brake - they want to stop, turn a bit and grab a bit much front. The bike stops, but with the front wheel turned it forces it to turn a bit more and can lean the bike. Very easy for a new rider to go down (especially if they have short legs!)
Using a bit of rear and less front can be a bit more progressive and in these cases a small lock of rear tyre isnt a drama compared to the front grabbing and the front wheel turning.
Sure they need to be taught to be better with the front bars - but there will be times when they have the bars turned at low speed and something happens and they brake when they didnt plan. In these cases if they are used to using both brakes then they are less likely to overuse the front.

[muddysteel]

You're right - you have more argument.

You missed the point of my prior post: Your note seems to encourage people to not practice emergency stops, and just focus on using the front brake. And you've expended quite a bit more words re-iterating this view.. You really don't have to be Rossi to develop better emergency stop skills and reflexes.

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by muddysteel

You missed the point of my prior post: Your note seems to encourage people to not practice emergency stops, and just focus on using the front brake.

I can't see anywhere that he or anybody else has advocated not practising.
If we want less dead and injured sportsbike riders we need to teach them not to use the rear brake in emergencies.
It is an additional load on their concentration with _zero_ advantage.
It's a lot like teaching drivers to turn the radio down as an essential part of their emergency stop.

[muddysteel]

Well, I didn't say the post said that, blade. I said the post seems to encourage people to brake only using the front brake. And, from this off-topic topic, it appears the focus is on how one's attention can be misplaced if conducting a panic stop, so best to focus on using just the front-brake.

Maybe it's my years of riding that makes it seem second nature to use both brakes - I sure don't think about it when conducting a panic stop (nor, about jamming the clutch/shifter downward). It just "happens"...

At any rate, poke around the web - this topic has quite a bit of real-world data.

Check this link out and scroll down to the 'Real Rider Performance' chart (produced in 2007). What you will see is three curves - with the one offering the highest amount of deceleration going to both brakes (and of course, least to rear brake only). (I'll also note the study covers brake performance of four different "types" of bikes; it found that a 750 Katana had its best braking using the front brake alone!) Because the real-world stats do not break out sport bikes into their own population, the assertions being made could be quite true - front-brake alone could be more effective (as evidenced by the Katana's measurements). Then again, maybe not (definitely applies to BFHs). Maybe somebody on this forum knows someone @ IPTM who could qualify this info..

this brake discussion is a bit like to-clutch or not-to-clutch for upshifts.. Good stuff!

[setanta]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

No idea.
I've crashed 29 times on the road and track.

Hey blade when do you think youll learn to ride properly or are you using the bike to learn to fall properly

[bladeracer]

Originally Posted by setanta

Hey blade when do you think youll learn to ride properly or are you using the bike to learn to fall properly

Just about got the hang of it now I think :-)
Only five in the last seventeen years :-)

[setanta]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

Just about got the hang of it now I think :-)
Only five in the last seventeen years :-)

Im so pleased cause the bones are getting softer now, trust me I came off at around 130 last year took way to long to get better but the bouncing experince meant i am writing this lol

[bladeracer]

I've noticed that :-)
In '04 I broke all the ribs in the left side of my chest, two in the right side, shattered my left shoulder blade and fractured the top of the humerous (also collapsed lungs and severe concussion). I still had significant pain after three years when I finally felt up to racing again :-)

[muddysteel]

Originally Posted by bladeracer

I've noticed that :-)
In '04 I broke all the ribs in the left side of my chest, two in the right side, shattered my left shoulder blade and fractured the top of the humerous (also collapsed lungs and severe concussion). I still had significant pain after three years when I finally felt up to racing again :-)

Man! Doesn't getting old suck? Takes like twenty times longer to heal than when you were 20!