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It begins....again!

5K views 44 replies 12 participants last post by  oldbastard 
#1 ·
Got 75mm JEpistons ordered for my 929, and a place in Germany that can properly bore and hone alusil on the 929 block. For 500 euro!
Just now sorting out crankshaft bearings, and after much measuring and chin-stroking it seems I might need a couple of size A main bearing shells, which are not listed in the normal parts fiche. These would be color code black I guess, with part number 13313-MWO-003. Does anyone know if they exist?
 
#10 ·
just thinking about breaking the bike in after rebuild, and think I'll go the radical route, i.e. use 10-50mineral oil and change it after the first 20 miles, and continue with that oil for another 1000miles or so, then switch to synthetic. I'll use 3/4 throttle now and then, and full engine braking, keeping to the less-populated roads where I can give it bursts of power, keeping the maximum revs to at least 1500rpm under the limit. After the first 20 miles and an oil change, gradually increase the duration and power of the bursts over the next 500 miles , then it should be job done. Opinions?


One other thing, 954 is 2.7% bigger than 929 (so sucks 2.7% more air requiring 2.7% more fuel, right? (there is no airflow measurement on the 929 PGM-FI system, and mine has no O2 sensor and no catalyst, so the system will not register that there is more air flowing, it still relies mainly on throttle position to calculate airflow)) . Mine is fitted with a power commander, so I'm tempted to increase the power commander map numbers by 2-3 across the whole rev range, based on what I saw post by Dynojet research on another site:

DynojetResearch
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 293
Our values in the table represent a percentage of fuel change relative to injector pulse width. A value of 0 means that the bike will run exactly as stock, no power commander. On a normal bike with 4 injectors if you were to put a value of 10 in the cell it would run about 10% richer. A value of -10 would be 10% leaner than stock. Now you have an 8 injector bike so this goes out the window. It is still 10% richer or leaner but NOT on the overall fuel curve, just on that set of injectors.

Basically, don't worry about the science behind it just know that a negative value is taking fuel away from the stock curve and a positive is adding fuel on top of the stock fuel curve.

If you are using a map that is close to your setup and you have to change the values more than 15 then something is going on. Also if the bike was running so lean as to cause engine damage it would be running horrible and hopefully you would stop riding the bike in that state. If it pulls clean to redline with no stumbles or hiccups you are in the ballpark.

More fuel does NOT mean more power. There are many bikes out there that come way too rich from the factory and we lean them out across the board to gain power.

Hope this helps.


sound reasonable?
 
#11 ·
Looks like this is falling on stony ground but I'll continue a little longer. Now checking the state of the gearbox from the original engine. Bit the bullet and took it down to component level and measured all the dimensions specified in the manual. Hardly any wear at all. Thanks Honda.
 

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#16 ·
So got it all back together..A solid weekends work...I was SO tempted to fire it up before I put the coolant in (Which I usually do just to check all 4 are firing and it sounds reasonable...draining coolant when you don't need to is SUCH a pain...).
Anyway, resisted the temptation because the first time it runs will be a thorough warm up and then immediately 30km of reasonably hard accel/decal to give the rings the best chance of bedding in. And last night I was too knackered to do any more.
 
#18 ·
Looks a good build.... i'm of the break it in hard camp also... get as much gas pressure behind the rings to do the initial bedding in on the cylinders.
Have you weight matched all the reciprocating parts?
 
#19 ·
Yes I have. Within 0.5g, which for my purposes is good enough. Went for the big start-up this evening, and got a refusal! It was firing on 2 or 3 cylinders, but wouldn't clear itself. Stopped after 3 attempts and pulled the plugs, needless to say wet (gas) and oily. Must have been a bit too keen with the oil when I put the pistons in. Try again tomorrow. Letting the cylinders dry out overnight.
 
#21 ·
So after I corrected the cam timing (I was 1 tooth out on both camshafts :banghead:) it fired up like a symphony, just finished putting it all together and now have to wait at least 10 days for some decent weather. Meanwhile time to sit and muse and re-run the video in my head of the rebuild trying to spot things that I didn't check.......:think:
 
#25 ·
I decided to brave storm Freya and do the first break-in session. It made all the right noises, pulled very strongly, but jumped out of second gear on the gas. That's what you get when you use an untried gearbox. So that's coming out again.
Very relieved with the first results though, apart from 2nd gear. As expected, the oil was quite heavily loaded with aluminium particles, got that out sharpish just after the run.
 
#27 ·
Its probably the previous owner of that gearbox. without seeing it I'd guess that the contact faces on the dogs have been worn enough that they now need undercutting. you can't tell by eye, at least I couldn't, I even thought they were in good nick. It was always a problem on the 929 and 954, plenty of posts here about it. I'll just take the gearbox from my back-up engine, that doesn't have the problem. Good job the weather is sh1t this weekend.
 
#30 ·
After a few hiccups, got it all back together, and it seems ok. More than OK actually, you can feel it loosening up with every mile. Not a huge amount more power nor did I expect it, certainly not from the capacity increase which might get you 3bhp, and the compression increase maybe another 3. But happy. and so is my wife, most of my home life has been in the garage recently....
 
#32 · (Edited)
an oily puzzle

I've been enjoying the summer with my rebuilt 929 now 954 engine, but was a bit disappointed with the oil consumption. About half a litre per 1000km. Not enough for visible smoke, but enough to be annoying. All kinds of dark thoughts start arising, so in the end pulled the plugs and did a compression check, just to get a feel for the general state of the rings. All 4 cylinders gave 200psi, which is not bad for 12.5:1 pistons. I looked at the oil which has been in there since may, dropped a litre of it (diluted with gas) through a filter paper to see what debris was lurking. Not much, and not spectacular. A few last tiny specks of aluminium, presumably still hanging around since the break-in, no copper thank God, I even cut open the filter and flushed it out to look at what had been caught, and again, hardly anything.
So what gives? The pistons are from JE, are their oil control rings known for not being as good as Honda OE? Before the rebore the engine used virtually no oil. The spark plugs are clean and light tan colour, no oil in the threads. Oh, and I fitted new valve oil seals in the rebuild. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
One last thing: I sometimes notice oil on the outside of the oil level check window. No oil tracks on the engine, none in the fairing, do these ever get leaky? I don't spill oil when I fill it.
 
#35 ·
Re: an oily puzzle

I've been enjoying the summer with my rebuilt 929 now 954 engine, but was a bit disappointed with the oil consumption. About half a litre per 1000km. Not enough for visible smoke, but enough to be annoying. All kinds of dark thoughts start arising, so in the end pulled the plugs and did a compression check, just to get a feel for the general state of the rings. All 4 cylinders gave 200psi, which is not bad for 12.5:1 pistons. I looked at the oil which has been in there since may, dropped a litre of it (diluted with gas) through a filter paper to see what debris was lurking. Not much, and not spectacular. A few last tiny specks of aluminium, presumably still hanging around since the break-in, no copper thank God, I even cut open the filter and flushed it out to look at what had been caught, and again, hardly anything.
So what gives? The pistons are from JE, are their oil control rings known for not being as good as Honda OE? Before the rebore the engine used virtually no oil. The spark plugs are clean and light tan colour, no oil in the threads. Oh, and I fitted new valve oil seals in the rebuild. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
One last thing: I sometimes notice oil on the outside of the oil level check window. No oil tracks on the engine, none in the fairing, do these ever get leaky? I don't spill oil when I fill it.
What oil did you use for the initial break in? Make, viscosity, synblend, full, or regular?
 
#36 ·
Break in was done with mineral oil, 15/40. Oil and filter changed at 20 miles and 200 miles. Gave it reasonably plenty of gas in the first 20miles to encourage the compression rings to do their job while they still were sharp. First oil looked a bit like thinned aluminium paint, but that was expected. No dramas, the JE pistons slap a bit when cold but so did the original items. When it's warm it sounds perfect.
Erm....what else...oh yes, the ring gaps were all carefully checked using the pistons to push the rings down a couple of centimetres in the bores. Maybe it's the same phenomenon as the 2008 blades?
 
#37 ·
What da fck does mineral oil do? I’ve never heard of that. I’ve always used a standard petroleum 10w-40 after a rebuild to get the rings to seat, and have never had a bike consume oil. Even in my 93 rebuild from 2013. Not a drop to refilled. Obviously if the mineral thing has worked for you in the past or you know of some magic it’s supposed to work then ok, but I don’t think anyone in the US would use mineral oil. Just not something I’ve ever heard of. Does it have detergents in it? What characteristics does it have that conventional motorcycle oil doesn’t? Can it handle the shearing forces of the transmission, and still hold up to clean cool and lubricate the engine? I don’t mean to sound like a fool, but I’ve just never heard of that. That’s what I would point to though, all else being proper.
 
#38 ·
Mineral oil oxidation doubles every 10 degrees above 75 C. Conventional motor oil begins to oxidize above 115 C. High temperature oils can withstand up to twice the temperature before begining to oxidize. I guess if the idea is to have the oil break down to aid in seating the rings, mineral oil would work but the short oil life means you'd be damaging the engine very quickly if you left it too long. Perhaps that's why you're burning oil?
 
#39 ·
Mineral oil is the term that I guess used to be used to distinguish vegetable based oils (like Castrol R, ) from oils derived from crude oil, which comes out of the ground like other minerals. Before synthetics came along, Castrol R was the oil of choice for racing motors, and the aroma of that haunts me to this day, it was THE smell of bike racing from my youth. So the oil I used for break-in was a normal non-synthetic 15/40 . As advised by the guys who did the rebore and honing for me. I guess it will have to wait until the end of the season to find out what's up with it, in the meantime the compression is excellent so I guess sticking a bit more oil in won't do any harm.
 
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