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post #1 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 1:47 AM Thread Starter
 
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Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

Title says it all, got a bike I'm working on here for a buddy and pulled the heads on it the other day, looking down into the exhaust ports, I was surprised to see some valve stem coloration that looked unusual to me.

#1 and #4, outer cylinders, have chalk white valve backs and stems in the exhaust port. See pics.

Inner two cylinders don't show any of these signs of heat. I'm curious if this is a jetting issue on this particular bike? Friend says jetting was done by a dyno guy, but I've ridden it before and I don't think the jetting is dead on IMHO...

See pics and lemme know what you think:

http://www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/.../valves003.jpg
http://www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/.../valves002.jpg
http://www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/.../valves001.jpg

Thanks
Vince

Last edited by vincejr; 09-06-2010 at 3:31 AM. Reason: broken links
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post #2 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 6:23 AM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Originally Posted by vincejr View Post
Title says it all, got a bike I'm working on here for a buddy and pulled the heads on it the other day, looking down into the exhaust ports, I was surprised to see some valve stem coloration that looked unusual to me.

#1 and #4, outer cylinders, have chalk white valve backs and stems in the exhaust port. See pics.

Inner two cylinders don't show any of these signs of heat. I'm curious if this is a jetting issue on this particular bike? Friend says jetting was done by a dyno guy, but I've ridden it before and I don't think the jetting is dead on IMHO...

See pics and lemme know what you think:

www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/valves003.jpg
www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/valves002.jpg
www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/valves001.jpg

Thanks
Vince
Did you do a compression test before you pulled the head off?
Are the spark plugs white?

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #3 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 6:52 AM
 
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

Was there race fuel in thereee
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post #4 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 7:30 AM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

I see valves that look like they may have been run lean, with lean injector timming/jetting, or long/early valve timimg duration. If you have taken the valves out of the head at this point, look for burned seats, and valve faces.
Race fuel or, pump gas will give the same results in newer engines. For fuel economy, and lower emissions, these days, the combustion chamber is hotter. If this engine has been raced, or run at high RPM's allot, like most of its running life, this is not absolutely abnormal. If this engine ran smoothly when you took a ride, it is likely that the valves are not burnt.

It does sound like you had question of this being jetted right. I can agree with you about this being an unusual sight of grey valve stems. Lean jetting at top end, will make this happen. Once again, long periods of time at high RPM, combined with lean injector timming/jetting can make this happen. Hopefully, I wasnt too cornfussing.

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post #5 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 2:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

bladeracer:
yes, 195psi in #1, 210psi in #2/#3, and 205psi in #4, so I'm good there IMO. Plugs look white to tan... Need to get a clean set of plugs, put 20 miles on them, and then to a proper plug chop reading....

Krazed:
No race gas.

sidmarklong:
I haven't removed the valves yet, but will check the seats for sure. Most of these miles were 7K to 10K RPM aggressive highway riding. Occasionally puttering around town. The engine does run smoothly, until it gets really hot, then you can tell a smoothness goes away.

When we dyno'd a few years ago, I thought they had the jetting nailed, it's running the BMC Race filter with the 1.7 factory pro jet kit. The mains are 148 inner, 145 outer. I was always taught the inner cylinders ran hotter so you could feed them more fuel. Thus the jetting stagger; this was also advised by Marc at Factory Pro. We stepped up larger and then smaller mains, and both times peak power at high rpm dropped. So the thought was we had the jetting dead on. We didn't have an EGA to do check the gasses which would have told us a lot about the staggering of the jets.

I had noted that the outer two cylinders EGT (measured with IR thermometer at the top of the header pipe) being lower than inner two. This tells me the head temperature is higher in those outer two cylinders. (EGT is inverse to head/combustion temp) I thought nothing of it at the time.

When I pulled the heads recently and saw the dramatic difference in coloration of the inner and outer exhaust valve stems, it made me really start thinking about the jetting of the bike all over again. The inner cylinder valves look normal, a slightly black coating... nothing like white or gray chalk.

Also here is a shot of the inside of the head pipes, same deal, outer two are white to gray. While inner two have a very thin coating of black soot.

www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/1and2headerpipe.jpg
www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/3and4headerpipe.jpg

Honestly, I'm thinking for some reason, this bike wants the stagger taken out of the jetting. Or maybe an inverse stagger, larger mains on the outside cylinders. Which would agree with you sidmarklong, that the jetting up top is lean.

I just have never seen valves this white before and going opposite the guidance of the guys at factory pro on the jetting seems even odder... but then again... every bike is unique in some way...

Last edited by vincejr; 09-06-2010 at 3:13 PM.
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post #6 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 9:24 PM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Originally Posted by vincejr View Post
bladeracer:
yes, 195psi in #1, 210psi in #2/#3, and 205psi in #4, so I'm good there IMO. Plugs look white to tan... Need to get a clean set of plugs, put 20 miles on them, and then to a proper plug chop reading....

Krazed:
No race gas.

sidmarklong:
I haven't removed the valves yet, but will check the seats for sure. Most of these miles were 7K to 10K RPM aggressive highway riding. Occasionally puttering around town. The engine does run smoothly, until it gets really hot, then you can tell a smoothness goes away.

When we dyno'd a few years ago, I thought they had the jetting nailed, it's running the BMC Race filter with the 1.7 factory pro jet kit. The mains are 148 inner, 145 outer. I was always taught the inner cylinders ran hotter so you could feed them more fuel. Thus the jetting stagger; this was also advised by Marc at Factory Pro. We stepped up larger and then smaller mains, and both times peak power at high rpm dropped. So the thought was we had the jetting dead on. We didn't have an EGA to do check the gasses which would have told us a lot about the staggering of the jets.

I had noted that the outer two cylinders EGT (measured with IR thermometer at the top of the header pipe) being lower than inner two. This tells me the head temperature is higher in those outer two cylinders. (EGT is inverse to head/combustion temp) I thought nothing of it at the time.

When I pulled the heads recently and saw the dramatic difference in coloration of the inner and outer exhaust valve stems, it made me really start thinking about the jetting of the bike all over again. The inner cylinder valves look normal, a slightly black coating... nothing like white or gray chalk.

Also here is a shot of the inside of the head pipes, same deal, outer two are white to gray. While inner two have a very thin coating of black soot.

www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/1and2headerpipe.jpg
www.snailsociety.com/vincejr/hotlink/3and4headerpipe.jpg

Honestly, I'm thinking for some reason, this bike wants the stagger taken out of the jetting. Or maybe an inverse stagger, larger mains on the outside cylinders. Which would agree with you sidmarklong, that the jetting up top is lean.

I just have never seen valves this white before and going opposite the guidance of the guys at factory pro on the jetting seems even odder... but then again... every bike is unique in some way...
Yep, compression is strong so it's unlikely oil is getting through the two dirty cylinders.
All engines are different so there's no solid rule about staggering the jets.
It certainly looks like your inner pair are running far too rich. Are the needles all in the same position?
There's not much you can do though while the head is off (why do you use the plural?).
Are you doing anything with the head that's likely to affect the jetting?

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post #7 of 13 Old 09-06-2010, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Yep, compression is strong so it's unlikely oil is getting through the two dirty cylinders.
All engines are different so there's no solid rule about staggering the jets.
It certainly looks like your inner pair are running far too rich. Are the needles all in the same position?
There's not much you can do though while the head is off (why do you use the plural?).
Are you doing anything with the head that's likely to affect the jetting?
Yep, needles in all the same positions. As for the plural 'heads', I dunno, semantics, potatoe, potato.....

I plan on deburring all the sharp edges off the inside of the combustion chambers and piston tops while the bike is apart. I'll be rejetting after all this anyways and yea, looks like I might flip the stagger and go larger on the outer pair..

So far everyone thinks that those valves indeed look hotter than they should be... ?
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post #8 of 13 Old 09-07-2010, 6:31 AM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Yep, needles in all the same positions. As for the plural 'heads', I dunno, semantics, potatoe, potato.....

I plan on deburring all the sharp edges off the inside of the combustion chambers and piston tops while the bike is apart. I'll be rejetting after all this anyways and yea, looks like I might flip the stagger and go larger on the outer pair..

So far everyone thinks that those valves indeed look hotter than they should be... ?

I wouldn't say they're too hot but the others are cooler than they should be. I'd richen the outers up a tad but lean off the inners even more. All irrelevant now though if you're going to change anything.
I would be very careful playing in the combustion chamber. You don't have to take much metal out to reduce your compression ratio. Why don't you want the sharp edges?

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post #9 of 13 Old 09-07-2010, 8:08 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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I wouldn't say they're too hot but the others are cooler than they should be. I'd richen the outers up a tad but lean off the inners even more. All irrelevant now though if you're going to change anything.
I would be very careful playing in the combustion chamber. You don't have to take much metal out to reduce your compression ratio. Why don't you want the sharp edges?
After discussing engine building with many dragster engine builders, they all suggest knocking down any sharp edges with a fine emery cloth, 600 grit, to remove the sharp edges. The edges can super heat to glowing metal in high comp motors, causing pre ignition or detonation. One example I was given on an S2000 motor was a boost of 40 HP after only taking smoothing the edges of the piston tops. It allowed them to run more timing. Looking at a set of pistons I have here, there are plenty of sharp edges that could be smoothed in 10 minutes. Its just extra insurance against hot spotting in the combution chamber and piston face. Plus I've got ignition advancers for this bike should we want to get aggressive after its all said and done. We're only talking about removing a minute amount of metal, think of the equivalent of deburring the inside of a copper pipe after it's been cut....

As for the inner/outer jetting. I'd almost say it could be as simple as swapping the existing jets in/out, out/in. Run the existing richer on the outside... Definitely going test and dyno everything once all the parts get here, give it a week or two. But I agree, each cylinder is being rather particular in its needs for fuel.... reminds me of what these same engine builders said, each cylinder was individually jetted for proper tuning... nothing was straight jetted...
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post #10 of 13 Old 09-07-2010, 8:14 AM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

Okay, thanks for the pics of the header pipes. Surely the inner two cylinders were ritcher than the outside cylinders. 3&4 should have been run leaner. Head pipes at the head port should look a little gray, rather these pics reveal dark souty color = equals too ritch, and all four. However, in light of every engine is different, I would say that 145"s in all four carbs would likely have been better.
Another thing to consider, if you are now going to rebuild this engine, all bets are off. You can work out the bugs when you put it back together.

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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Originally Posted by sidmarklong View Post
Okay, thanks for the pics of the header pipes. Surely the inner two cylinders were ritcher than the outside cylinders. 3&4 should have been run leaner. Head pipes at the head port should look a little gray, rather these pics reveal dark souty color = equals too ritch, and all four. However, in light of every engine is different, I would say that 145"s in all four carbs would likely have been better.
Another thing to consider, if you are now going to rebuild this engine, all bets are off. You can work out the bugs when you put it back together.
Yep, an in addition to doing proper plug chops, I'll be dropping the header pipes to take a look, that info there was rather revealing IMO.
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post #12 of 13 Old 09-08-2010, 8:01 AM
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Yep, an in addition to doing proper plug chops, I'll be dropping the header pipes to take a look, that info there was rather revealing IMO.
There is allot to be said about what I have sent in information. When looking at the valve pictures, I thought there was a lean problem with cylinders 1&4 and a ritch problem with 2&3. I suggested a lean problem all the way across the head. This is reference to needles being set to low in the slides = thus not allowing the mains to fully feed the cylinder for top end. I look at the pictures of the head pipes at the ports, they look dark black soutty color.
A slightly grey sout (still a dark sout, but with a grey, "tinny specks of grey"), surface, indication of good jetting with good needle placement. You have a better picture in front of you in real life. I have only a picture.
So, in the hopes that I may have not misslead in my information, I would like to suggest that jetting may have been close. A leaner main choice with a higher needle slot, may have given better all around performance.
Sometimes, I have made a ritcher choice in mains and gained a very strong midrange, with a mediocure top end, that I never really noticed. I have tried the theory of jetting for individual cylinders before. I didn't get any really good solid results while doing so. I have always chosen to go with one main jet size for all cylinders, even after trying to gain that one punch more, with searching for individual cylinder performance. I have always realied on good needle placement to gain control of bottom, mid, and top end power, once the main was achieved. Jetting is not easy, it takes allot of patience. I'm old school experience, with using plug readings, seat of the pant's kick, and exhaust pipe color, with plenty of good hard arm stretching runs. If you have A dyno, and a 4gas meter, your much farther down the road than I. This is probably all you want to know, so I hope you have fun rebuilding your buddies engine.
If you can put together what Bladeracer and I have written here for you; it is likely that you have a good base of info for future fun and success.

If you don't stand for something, then you'll fall for anything. The proverbial "trick", is not to follow anyone elses idea of reality. Be an individual. The future belongs to those who prepare for it.

Last edited by sidmarklong; 09-08-2010 at 8:06 AM.
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post #13 of 13 Old 09-08-2010, 8:54 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Opinion wanted on these white exhaust valve pics

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Originally Posted by sidmarklong View Post
There is allot to be said about what I have sent in information. When looking at the valve pictures, I thought there was a lean problem with cylinders 1&4 and a ritch problem with 2&3. I suggested a lean problem all the way across the head. This is reference to needles being set to low in the slides = thus not allowing the mains to fully feed the cylinder for top end. I look at the pictures of the head pipes at the ports, they look dark black soutty color.
A slightly grey sout (still a dark sout, but with a grey, "tinny specks of grey"), surface, indication of good jetting with good needle placement. You have a better picture in front of you in real life. I have only a picture.
So, in the hopes that I may have not misslead in my information, I would like to suggest that jetting may have been close. A leaner main choice with a higher needle slot, may have given better all around performance.
Sometimes, I have made a ritcher choice in mains and gained a very strong midrange, with a mediocure top end, that I never really noticed. I have tried the theory of jetting for individual cylinders before. I didn't get any really good solid results while doing so. I have always chosen to go with one main jet size for all cylinders, even after trying to gain that one punch more, with searching for individual cylinder performance. I have always realied on good needle placement to gain control of bottom, mid, and top end power, once the main was achieved. Jetting is not easy, it takes allot of patience. I'm old school experience, with using plug readings, seat of the pant's kick, and exhaust pipe color, with plenty of good hard arm stretching runs. If you have A dyno, and a 4gas meter, your much farther down the road than I. This is probably all you want to know, so I hope you have fun rebuilding your buddies engine.
If you can put together what Bladeracer and I have written here for you; it is likely that you have a good base of info for future fun and success.
Thanks guys, I think we're on the right path indeed. Generally speaking, the main air bleed jet can be tweaked if the midrange can't be tuned because the main jet has to be to large to get enough high rpm fuel... i only know this cause the I spoke with marc at factory pro about the kit many years ago... not planning on deviating from the kit settings, I think we'll just invert the jetting in/out and or go straight across with the same jets to start with. Truth be told, I'd rather be a little rich than too lean, safer than sorry... Seen what to lean can do to pistons, rings, and bearings if detonation runs wild....

Thanks again!
Vince
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