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post #1 of 48 Old 03-03-2012, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
 
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F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

Hello all

I seem to have an issue no forum can answer so I have no come here.

I have a CBR 600 F3 and it has been giving me some trouble. I'll start from the very top to give everyone the best idea as to what's going on. Looong time ago I had some issues with the electrics stuttering when I would go WOT in the high rev's, this then led to my bike hitting a "wall" at about 5-6k RPMs; after a lot of trial and tribulations I gave up and she ended up sitting for a year.After that year I found that the smaller vacuum hose from the tank had been shoved under the tank and then allowed my bike to start and the "wall" basically went away, I was un able to sell her and she sat another year to present day.

Present day: Was getting the bike ready for the new year, got her started up (fresh oil, fresh gas, plugs are clean) but still felt as if going high in RPMs was stressful for her. So I started her up once every couple days to let her idle, I then noticed a small drip coming from a fuel pump hose, specifically the one that connects the pump to the carbs. Well I rode her around some more that day and she sat at idle a few times, each time cranking right up when asked. Then I began to drive her home, I rev'd her to 8grand (I don't believe she has been this high in rev's in motion in a long while) after that I shifted and she dropped to 4grand and bogged/sputtered and died and left the electrics on just no motor (there was over 1/4 of a tank and the petcock was set to ON). I got her home and she didn't want to start; the next morning I went outside and she tried to sputter to life, I manually pushed the choke mechanism on and she came to life but I accidentally let it go before it warmed all the way up. Ever since then she has not wanted to start... For one day ( and one day only) I had to reset the killswitch in order for the starter to work (normally it will attempt to crank as many times as pressed but I suppose my battery was low and made me reset it each time I wanted to crank it?). I've pulled her down to the carbs and put her back together and still no start.

So that's basically where I am at. I have a voltmeter but unsure exactly how to use it effectively, I have checked all the hoses and trimmed the one that was causing a drip leak at the fuel pump, I have checked the contacts on the pump and they seem to have a good amount of material left on them, the R/R seems to be aftermarket and has "cooling fins" there is no apparent damage or melting on it or around it (or around any electrics I can see atm). I honestly do not know what to do; I would like to check the Fuel pump relay but the manual gives some shoddy instructions on how to do so (as well as checking the fuel pump itself).

All help is greatly welcomed and appreciated! Hopefully we can get down to this issue for the sake of anyone else searching google with my issues.
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post #2 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 3:51 AM
 
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

I always think Fuel, spark, and air when trying to figure out bike problems.

I have an F3 too.... if the bike runs fine from time to time and then progressively gets boggy and then dies...then starts the next day... I suspect the vent tube to the tank is kinked not allowing the pressure to release as the fuel level goes down.

After you run the bike and it dies, pop the gas cap... if it whooshes in air you need to fix the kinked or blocked vent hose on the bottom of the tank.

Other thing that can give you that problem is a dirty fuel filter... you might as well replace it because it's an easy and cheap fix.

If that alll doesn't work you can look at the spark plugs... they can tell you a lot about if the bike is running lean or rich.
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post #3 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 4:29 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

Plugs are good; going to check for spark tomorrow (err later today). Tubes are all good, none kinked that I can see. May have been an issue with the vacuum tube before but she hasn't wanted to start today at all either so I need to figure out how to get that to work.

I'm trying to figure out how to test my fuel cut relay and my fuel pump. I am also prepared to tear into the carbs; I have educated myself on a good technique to cleaning and syncing (not re-jetting or replacing anything). Other than that I am somewhat at a loss.

Also in the process of attempting to find a throttle tube + cables and a choke cable.
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post #4 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 6:50 AM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Plugs are good; going to check for spark tomorrow (err later today). Tubes are all good, none kinked that I can see. May have been an issue with the vacuum tube before but she hasn't wanted to start today at all either so I need to figure out how to get that to work.

I'm trying to figure out how to test my fuel cut relay and my fuel pump. I am also prepared to tear into the carbs; I have educated myself on a good technique to cleaning and syncing (not re-jetting or replacing anything). Other than that I am somewhat at a loss.

Also in the process of attempting to find a throttle tube + cables and a choke cable.

Check the pump by connecting 12V power directly to it.
Check the relay by connecting 12V power to the IN side and you will hear it click and see continuity on the OUT side.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #5 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 6:56 AM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Originally Posted by F3Owner View Post
Hello all

I seem to have an issue no forum can answer so I have no come here.

I have a CBR 600 F3 and it has been giving me some trouble. I'll start from the very top to give everyone the best idea as to what's going on. Looong time ago I had some issues with the electrics stuttering when I would go WOT in the high rev's, this then led to my bike hitting a "wall" at about 5-6k RPMs; after a lot of trial and tribulations I gave up and she ended up sitting for a year.After that year I found that the smaller vacuum hose from the tank had been shoved under the tank and then allowed my bike to start and the "wall" basically went away, I was un able to sell her and she sat another year to present day.

Present day: Was getting the bike ready for the new year, got her started up (fresh oil, fresh gas, plugs are clean) but still felt as if going high in RPMs was stressful for her. So I started her up once every couple days to let her idle, I then noticed a small drip coming from a fuel pump hose, specifically the one that connects the pump to the carbs. Well I rode her around some more that day and she sat at idle a few times, each time cranking right up when asked. Then I began to drive her home, I rev'd her to 8grand (I don't believe she has been this high in rev's in motion in a long while) after that I shifted and she dropped to 4grand and bogged/sputtered and died and left the electrics on just no motor (there was over 1/4 of a tank and the petcock was set to ON). I got her home and she didn't want to start; the next morning I went outside and she tried to sputter to life, I manually pushed the choke mechanism on and she came to life but I accidentally let it go before it warmed all the way up. Ever since then she has not wanted to start... For one day ( and one day only) I had to reset the killswitch in order for the starter to work (normally it will attempt to crank as many times as pressed but I suppose my battery was low and made me reset it each time I wanted to crank it?). I've pulled her down to the carbs and put her back together and still no start.

So that's basically where I am at. I have a voltmeter but unsure exactly how to use it effectively, I have checked all the hoses and trimmed the one that was causing a drip leak at the fuel pump, I have checked the contacts on the pump and they seem to have a good amount of material left on them, the R/R seems to be aftermarket and has "cooling fins" there is no apparent damage or melting on it or around it (or around any electrics I can see atm). I honestly do not know what to do; I would like to check the Fuel pump relay but the manual gives some shoddy instructions on how to do so (as well as checking the fuel pump itself).

All help is greatly welcomed and appreciated! Hopefully we can get down to this issue for the sake of anyone else searching google with my issues.

Have you disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the carbs?
Have you bypassed the fuel pump already?
What do you mean by resetting the kill switch?
Have you bypassed the kill switch to rule it out?
If you regularly use the kill switch it may be worn out. It should always be on - use the ignition switch to stop the engine just as you do in a car.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
Check the pump by connecting 12V power directly to it.
Check the relay by connecting 12V power to the IN side and you will hear it click and see continuity on the OUT side.
How do I connect 12V power to the relay? Or are you speaking of setting the Voltmeter to 12? I'm sorry for the dumb question, I know I am more than capable of doing this I guess a voltmeter is not something I've really had to use (I have an older analog one that clicks to 10-20-50+)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
Have you disassembled and thoroughly cleaned the carbs?No I have no but certainly planned to, I just do not have a pilot screw and was educating on how to re-sync them before engaging in this endeavor
Have you bypassed the fuel pump already? By bypassing the fuel pump do you mean gravity feeding the bike? No I have no come to that, was trying to see if the damn thing works.
What do you mean by resetting the kill switch?For one day, and one day only, my bike would make me flip the kill switch on and off in order for the starter to crank; now it will crank as many times as I push it (it was an odd issue)
Have you bypassed the kill switch to rule it out? No I have not, did not see it was an issue after it fixed itself
If you regularly use the kill switch it may be worn out. It should always be on - use the ignition switch to stop the engine just as you do in a car.This is good information, does this apply to all bikes? Because I actually heard it was bad to leave the kill switch ON, so I always have been turning off my bikes with it...
Thank you very much for the input, I am all ears!
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post #7 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 11:58 AM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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How do I connect 12V power to the relay? Or are you speaking of setting the Voltmeter to 12? I'm sorry for the dumb question, I know I am more than capable of doing this I guess a voltmeter is not something I've really had to use (I have an older analog one that clicks to 10-20-50+)



Thank you very much for the input, I am all ears!

You run two wires from a battery to the fuel pump connector :-)
If it doesn't work then run power to the pump where the wires join to rule out a broken wire.
I don't know what you mean about not having a pilot screw.
Synchronisation only affects idle smoothness.
Yes, connect a fuel supply directly to the carbs.
Then perhaps the kill switch is bad - bypass it to rule it out.
Yes, all bikes. The kill switch is for emergency use only and is useful during diagnostics. It is not designed to be used regularly and it will fail if done so. If it has been left off for long periods I would inspect that the contacts haven't corroded.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #8 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
You run two wires from a battery to the fuel pump connector :-)
If it doesn't work then run power to the pump where the wires join to rule out a broken wire.
I don't know what you mean about not having a pilot screw.
Synchronisation only affects idle smoothness.
Yes, connect a fuel supply directly to the carbs.
Then perhaps the kill switch is bad - bypass it to rule it out.
Yes, all bikes. The kill switch is for emergency use only and is useful during diagnostics. It is not designed to be used regularly and it will fail if done so. If it has been left off for long periods I would inspect that the contacts haven't corroded.
Wow, you're chopped full of knowledge!

So I don't eff this up, what wires do you run from the battery to the connector (do you mean relay near the R/R or do you speak of the connector underneath the seat?) I spoke of a pilot screw adjuster as mentioned in this How To that I planned to follow: here

Holy crap I feel dumb for not knowing this about the kill switch time to go switch all my bikes to ON!

And you're telling me no need to sync my carbs after cleaning them? Just tear into them and give em a good clean? Do you have a specific how-to you find better than the one I listed? (The guy in that one speaks of using an air compressor and carb cleaner to clean the jets, I assume he is not speaking of a can of air duster [as in air duster won't be strong enough and I should pull the jets and clean them via a soak orrr any better ideas?]

I'm sorry I am filled with dumb questions but maybe this thread will help out any others in my position.
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post #9 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 12:23 PM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Wow, you're chopped full of knowledge!

So I don't eff this up, what wires do you run from the battery to the connector (do you mean relay near the R/R or do you speak of the connector underneath the seat?) I spoke of a pilot screw adjuster as mentioned in this How To that I planned to follow: here

Holy crap I feel dumb for not knowing this about the kill switch time to go switch all my bikes to ON!

And you're telling me no need to sync my carbs after cleaning them? Just tear into them and give em a good clean? Do you have a specific how-to you find better than the one I listed? (The guy in that one speaks of using an air compressor and carb cleaner to clean the jets, I assume he is not speaking of a can of air duster [as in air duster won't be strong enough and I should pull the jets and clean them via a soak orrr any better ideas?]

I'm sorry I am filled with dumb questions but maybe this thread will help out any others in my position.

You get two lengths of wire. Fix one end of each to the terminals of whatever 12V battery you are using. Touch the other ends to the positive and negative terminals of the fuel pump - the wiring diagram in your manual will detail which those wires are.
Unless you specifically alter the synchronising screws then there is no need to re-synch afterwards. You can still synch them if you want to but it's not required unless they're way off.
Yes, you can only clean carbs by removing all the jets, thoroughly cleaning everything with carb cleaner - including spraying it through every orifice - and confirming carb cleaner or compressed air flows through them. Then clean everything out with compressed air immediately before reassembly.
After reassembly, connect a fuel supply to the carbs with about six-feet of head pressure and ensure the carbs do not leak in their normal orientation. Tilt them in each direction until they do leak and confirm they stop leaking when you level them.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

Ah, it's all making sense now! As far as using the 12V battery on the fuel pump is that how you test the pump itself? How would you test the relay? I took my voltmeter and set it to 50 and then put the red end into one of the crimps on relay and tried to ground the black end but I saw nothing, I assumed maybe my battery is too far gone to allow me to get a reading? Or I was doing this completely wrong...

When you say "six-feet of head pressure" how do you mean? Like a long hose gravity fed system to the carbs like hooking the tank straight to them and holding it above them or how would you suggest the best way to do this?

Thank you for the help my friend, you are truly a blessing at this point!
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post #11 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 12:53 PM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Ah, it's all making sense now! As far as using the 12V battery on the fuel pump is that how you test the pump itself? How would you test the relay? I took my voltmeter and set it to 50 and then put the red end into one of the crimps on relay and tried to ground the black end but I saw nothing, I assumed maybe my battery is too far gone to allow me to get a reading? Or I was doing this completely wrong...

When you say "six-feet of head pressure" how do you mean? Like a long hose gravity fed system to the carbs like hooking the tank straight to them and holding it above them or how would you suggest the best way to do this?

Thank you for the help my friend, you are truly a blessing at this point!

The very first thing you need to do is charge the battery. You are wasting your time trying to diagnose electrical circuits if you have no power supply.
A relay is just a simple switch. You put voltage into it via a low current circuit which closes the contacts for a high current circuit on the other side of it.
Apply 12V power to the input terminals and check for continuity across the output terminals. You should also be able to hear it click, but that doesn't neccessarily confirm the circuit has closed as it might be broken inside.
I'm hopeless with electrics so I'm not the best to be bouncing ideas off :-)
The manual should detail all the tests you can do on the various circuits and components. And if you don't have a manual you might as well stop until you get one, the information will be invaluable. For the nicest wiring diagrams I recommend the Haynes manual.
Yes, put the fuel tank up above head height and run a fuel line down to the carbs at ground level is the simplest way to do it.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
The very first thing you need to do is charge the battery. You are wasting your time trying to diagnose electrical circuits if you have no power supply.
A relay is just a simple switch. You put voltage into it via a low current circuit which closes the contacts for a high current circuit on the other side of it.
Apply 12V power to the input terminals and check for continuity across the output terminals. You should also be able to hear it click, but that doesn't neccessarily confirm the circuit has closed as it might be broken inside.
I'm hopeless with electrics so I'm not the best to be bouncing ideas off :-)
The manual should detail all the tests you can do on the various circuits and components. And if you don't have a manual you might as well stop until you get one, the information will be invaluable. For the nicest wiring diagrams I recommend the Haynes manual.
Yes, put the fuel tank up above head height and run a fuel line down to the carbs at ground level is the simplest way to do it.
I need to get the battery trickle charged, she got low after running on basically idling RPMs.
I have the Honda manual but boy are they vague on things like testing the relay etc.
Looks like I'll be Google-ing some kind of "how-to" electrical guide, some of this is still like Spanish to me and I need to educate myself. I can swap out motors with no problems but can't for the life of me figure out this whole electrical thing... Nothing wrong with learning a new skill.
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post #13 of 48 Old 03-04-2012, 1:19 PM
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

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I need to get the battery trickle charged, she got low after running on basically idling RPMs.
I have the Honda manual but boy are they vague on things like testing the relay etc.
Looks like I'll be Google-ing some kind of "how-to" electrical guide, some of this is still like Spanish to me and I need to educate myself. I can swap out motors with no problems but can't for the life of me figure out this whole electrical thing... Nothing wrong with learning a new skill.

Yes, the OEM manuals assume a minimum level of expertise. Haynes is better in that regard, but it often misses some of the minutiae some of us prefer :-)
I've been trying to understand electrics for decades but progress has been astoundingly slow :-)

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

Haha, well any tips you could provide that would help me avoid decades would be awesome! I'm just most cautious that I don't want to short anything out.
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Re: F3: Issues; Can't find help anywhere

Tiny Update: Went through the service manual and followed the instructions on testing the relay etc.
-There is spark, I even got a little shocked trying to test it (hard to see blue arc in day light). [CHECK]
-When ignition is ON the relay connector has Voltage [CHECK]
-The resistance (same as continuity from what I hear) was in between 0-1 OHM I believe meaning that there is no continuity [CHECK (if it does truly mean there is no continuity)]

Now I am going to hook a paper clip (jumper wire) where the manual states on the relay connector, while disconnected from the relay itself, and I am supposed to see the output of the fuel pump. Seems easy enough. However it is a hard thing to test without holding the tank and when I do that I am not able to hook up the bigger vacuum hose (is this important for this test?).

Thank you!

EDIT: UPDATE: Okay so I slightly hooked up the bigger vacuum hose (the small one is constantly connected) but I do feel these are needed in the fuel pump test. Here's a few things:
-I shorted the relay connector with a jumper wire as stated in the manual
-I had the fuel pump hose that connects to the carbs in a mason jar
-I put the petcock down (I also tried up) and then turned on the ignition for 5 seconds as per the manual
-A little tiny intsy wintsy bit of gas came out... (not the 58.33333 cc/ml that was "supposed" to)
-Perhaps low Voltage in the battery would cause this? Will test with battery hooked up to a car

Sooo... looking sort of like a fuel pump issue but perhaps I'm doing something wrong. When I disconnect the hose that goes from the petcock-> fuel filter -> fuel pump it does poooouuuuurr out gas when the petcock is left on (I just accidentally did this) but I am curious if the fuel filter could be on backwards causing this issue I am having with my fuel pump? But seriously which way is correct? Does the metal ring side of the filter connect to the petcock hose or to the fuel pump hose?

If my fuel pump is shot, I do not want to spend $30 on a Napa one, what are the disadvantages of gravity feeding? If I gravity feed do I gravity feed from the petcock to the fuel filter to the carbs? Or bypass the filter? The pump on my bike right now looks to have the Mitsubishi symbol on it, is this not stock because it fits perfectly and would be a good note to make for those looking at after market pumps.

Bout to go outside and test her with the battery hooked up
-2nd Update: Hooking up the battery did absolutely nothing... /discuss

Last edited by F3Owner; 03-04-2012 at 5:25 PM. Reason: UPDATE; 2nd Update
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