new timing chain. cant align. - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 16 Old 02-07-2014, 7:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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new timing chain. cant align.

alright so everybody heres the deal. bike is a 2002 cbr 954 with 31k

iv searched AND YES i have a manual. (which is actually wrong on this part and ill explain)

(((((((the reason i say the manual is wrong is because it says to set the "T" mark on the notch on the cover. BUT when you bring the "T" around you feel the compression stroke start to decompress. also the manual also does not mention the line at the bottom of the pulse rotor and the line in line at the bottom of the hole in the clutch cover. when that bottom line is aligned AND just before the "T" that is TDC. i set the timing according the the book and it gave me a fit to start. then when it did it wouldn't rev passed 1800ish RPMs and backfired/ missed like crazy.. so im doing what seems right this time and lining up the bottom line in the clutch cover and just before the "T" and actually after googleing this it seems other members set the timing just before the "T" and not on the "T")))))))

but anyway. the real issue here is that. i can get the intake cam to align perfectly. but the exhaust cam will night quite align. meaning where i have it now bolted in is like "half a tooth" off so either way where i am right now seems angled slightly up from being flush to the surface of the head and if i move it down a tooth. then it is like its "half a tooth" to low i cant seem to get both cams aligned even with the head at the same time. I THINK THIS IS BC THIS IS A BRAND NEW TIMING CHAIN, but what should i do?

yes the tensioner is out.

can any body tell me what should i do at this point. i will post pics if i can
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post #2 of 16 Old 02-07-2014, 7:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

ok so see how the ex cam does not run parallel with the head surface ?

*EDIT* if i take the exhaust cam down another tooth, it just goes below the head surface. this setting was closer in my opinion
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Last edited by lrayford; 02-07-2014 at 7:57 PM.
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post #3 of 16 Old 02-07-2014, 11:58 PM
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrayford View Post
alright so everybody heres the deal. bike is a 2002 cbr 954 with 31k

iv searched AND YES i have a manual. (which is actually wrong on this part and ill explain)

(((((((the reason i say the manual is wrong is because it says to set the "T" mark on the notch on the cover. BUT when you bring the "T" around you feel the compression stroke start to decompress. also the manual also does not mention the line at the bottom of the pulse rotor and the line in line at the bottom of the hole in the clutch cover. when that bottom line is aligned AND just before the "T" that is TDC. i set the timing according the the book and it gave me a fit to start. then when it did it wouldn't rev passed 1800ish RPMs and backfired/ missed like crazy.. so im doing what seems right this time and lining up the bottom line in the clutch cover and just before the "T" and actually after googleing this it seems other members set the timing just before the "T" and not on the "T")))))))

but anyway. the real issue here is that. i can get the intake cam to align perfectly. but the exhaust cam will night quite align. meaning where i have it now bolted in is like "half a tooth" off so either way where i am right now seems angled slightly up from being flush to the surface of the head and if i move it down a tooth. then it is like its "half a tooth" to low i cant seem to get both cams aligned even with the head at the same time. I THINK THIS IS BC THIS IS A BRAND NEW TIMING CHAIN, but what should i do?

yes the tensioner is out.

can any body tell me what should i do at this point. i will post pics if i can

Ignore the timing mark, simply put the #1 piston at TDC using a probe down a plug hole. #1 is the left side of the engine. Then pull the chain tight up the front of the engine and around the exhaust sprocket, then around the intake sprocket. When turning the crankshaft it would be easier if you remove the plugs first.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #4 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 4:10 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

thanks blade. ill try it. i'm thinking it wont make a difference because i tried the exhaust cam first still couldn't get both cams to align perfectly parallel to the head mating surfaces. but ill give it a shot in the morning if it works by setting tdc that way and will try to get both cams to align correctly.

will report back in a few hours
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post #5 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 4:52 AM
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Bladeracer's right in that you should set the timing independently of the timing marks if possible, if not then I'm with your EDIT comment "if i take the exhaust cam down another tooth, it just goes below the head surface. this setting was closer in my opinion".

Proof of the pudding is when you get the chain tensioner back in, providing everything turns freely without locking up you'll be OK.

It's always a nervy moment, first press of the starter button after camchain replacement

GG
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post #6 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 4:56 AM
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganzeegeezer View Post
Bladeracer's right in that you should set the timing independently of the timing marks if possible, if not then I'm with your EDIT comment "if i take the exhaust cam down another tooth, it just goes below the head surface. this setting was closer in my opinion".

Proof of the pudding is when you get the chain tensioner back in, providing everything turns freely without locking up you'll be OK.

It's always a nervy moment, first press of the starter button after camchain replacement

GG

You _always_ turn the engine over by hand before pressing the button though ;-)

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post #7 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 5:06 AM
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Indeed, you'd be some sort of fool to see if everything is OK on the starter

Like the old adage, measure twice cut once. Always turn the engine over by hand a few full rotations and then check the timing marks are still in the same place and the chain is nice and tight.

GG
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post #8 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 5:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

right. i just hope that the new chain isn't going to be impossible with me and not stretch to give me enough slack for the cam marks to both be parallel 100%

and honestly i was letting a buddy "help" me and i asked if if the timing marks were correct and he said yeah. without looking i put the motor in and fired it up just to realize the timing was off. out it came and the intake cam was 1 tooth higher then it should have been so i took it down 1 tooth and it lined up correctly but i was still using the "T" mark so it got a little better but still isn't right.

now that i'm (EDIT:NOT USING THE) "T" mark i cant get the cams perfect. (maybe i'm being over cautious here but this is the 3rd time ill be setting the timing i don't want to make it a 4th

here are pics after the 2nd time timing it. but using the "T" mark . also 1 pic of where the intake cam was before i moved it down 1. (AGAIN THESE ARE NOT THE CURRENT PICS THIS IS FROM THE 2ND TIME, the pics in the 2ND post are where im at now.)
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Last edited by lrayford; 02-08-2014 at 5:21 AM. Reason: forgot words
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post #9 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 5:44 AM
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Hi
Not to step on anyones toes here, but. I've had this wrestle quite a few times myself. The 'half tooth' thing you describe has driven me nuts in the past. My approach is that the tensioner will tend to pull the chain 'backwards' when running. i.e. set the 'half tooth' difference forward of the ideal marks. (In your case, exhaust cam mark just below the case top). As the chain beds in, the cam timing will tend to align itself correctly as the tensioner does its thing. Its the reason for having vernier sprocket wheels on performance engines, so you can dial in the timing absolutely exactly.
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post #10 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 5:59 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdugen View Post
Hi
Not to step on anyones toes here, but. I've had this wrestle quite a few times myself. The 'half tooth' thing you describe has driven me nuts in the past. My approach is that the tensioner will tend to pull the chain 'backwards' when running. i.e. set the 'half tooth' difference forward of the ideal marks. (In your case, exhaust cam mark just below the case top). As the chain beds in, the cam timing will tend to align itself correctly as the tensioner does its thing. Its the reason for having vernier sprocket wheels on performance engines, so you can dial in the timing absolutely exactly.

you know what, i like what you said and it makes perfect sense.

my only concern with this theory is that, with this being a brand new chain the tensioner does not seem to have much of an impact. at least at this point.

i mean maybe it will i'm not saying your wrong. just thinking to myself..

i cant sleep right now being that its almost 6 am my time so im just floating around on the fourm until i feel like its not to early to be out in the garage trying the tips iv gotten. lol

you guys stay tuned for the results . i'm going to be a much more active member on here since i'm back in the cbr game for good ( it seems ) if you want a teaser or were curious to why i'm even at the stage of putting a brand new cam chain in well..... you'll just have to keep checking back
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post #11 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 6:03 AM
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

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Originally Posted by lrayford View Post
you know what, i like what you said and it makes perfect sense.

my only concern with this theory is that, with this being a brand new chain the tensioner does not seem to have much of an impact. at least at this point.

i mean maybe it will i'm not saying your wrong. just thinking to myself..

i cant sleep right now being that its almost 6 am my time so im just floating around on the fourm until i feel like its not to early to be out in the garage trying the tips iv gotten. lol

you guys stay tuned for the results . i'm going to be a much more active member on here since i'm back in the cbr game for good ( it seems ) if you want a teaser or were curious to why i'm even at the stage of putting a brand new cam chain in well..... you'll just have to keep checking back

The tensioner won't affect the front run of chain, that should be tight already. The tensioner just takes up the slack in the unloaded side of the chain.

What was the reason for replacing the chain?
Did you remove the cams or pull the chain through and rivet it together?

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post #12 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 6:13 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

yeah thats what i was thinking, that it was already pulled tight.

the reason the chain is being replaced is. i got this bike wrecked with a busted lower case. the bike ran so i took it on. it does have 31k on it. so while doing a case swap i had the head off obviously. so new head gasket, check valve clearances ect. but the chain had a little wear to it. not to the point of not being able to be reused. but just because it had 31k miles on it. i have almost zero information on how the bike was treated and if im going to go through and put new bearings. head gasket ect. why not replace the semi worn cam chain with brand new since i already have it apart .. but thats a separate thread for when its actually complete and "successful"
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post #13 of 16 Old 02-08-2014, 7:37 AM
 
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Hi.
The chain run, front, should be pulled tight. But as the chain beds in and all the little tolerances in all the links settle, the slight slack will be taken up by the tensioner, which (IMHO, and only after lots of surmise), should tend to take up this slack towards the rear run. I would not lose too much sleep over it though, its never been an issue on the engines I've done. (Except for the barely supressed desire to fork out for the vernier cam-wheels, at great expense, to get it perfect).
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

Well I just did what jdugen said and it worked out perfect. Both cam marks line up parallel with the cylinder head now.

Also blade your way of finding tdc was correct. But it also happens that me using the bottom line with the clutch cover was also correct. I was a little off bc my line wasn't exact but using that probe method I dialed it to exact tdc which lined up perfect with the lower line anyways.

So what I did was settle exhaust cam down a tooth and again it seemed to low. I put the tensioner in and released it. Then turned the motor over by hand twice (just for good luck) and checked the marks and TA-DA parallel cam marks
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Re: new timing chain. cant align.

the frist 2 pics are before the cam chain tensioner was in, this is how they were set.

the next 2 are after installing the tensioner where they ended up.

and the last pic is for reference. the book is wrong with the "T" mark. line up the bottom line with the spot on the cover for TDC

(also the last 3 pics are all on the same setting)
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