CBR929RR Ignition coils? - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 14 Old 06-05-2016, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
 
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CBR929RR Ignition coils?

G'day Everyone,

About a month ago I rode my 2001 929RR into my shed (because it's winter here in Australia). My CBR1100XX was a crash damaged bike which didn't come with the HISS key so I swapped ECUs around to test the 1100 but it wouldn't fire. I swapped the ECU back and now the 929 won't start. I did run the 929 low on fuel, but I've topped it up with fresh from a jerry can (I also race karts, so had plenty around).

In order to diagnose it, I've tested the injectors (they all fire) and the coils are getting correct signals from the ECU according to the oscilloscope I've got; it sits at 5v then drops to 0v to fire. I've pulled a coil and tested it for resistance for primary and secondary. I've done the same for the spark plug that came out as well. The spark plug was 4.9kOhm, which sounded about right. The resistances of the primary and secondary came out ok too from my research (can't remember what I measured, but one was low and one was really high - none were open circuit).

With the spark plug in the coil and the coil out of the block, I've run a jumper lead from the outside of the plug back to the -ve of the battery. When cranking I get no spark. I've tried earthing against the chassis and no spark.

I've tried heaps of different things, all with no spark.

Also in my shed is a CBR1100XX and a CBR900RR (which is in a lotus 7 replica), so I could try coils from them, or plugs from them, but they're not a coil on plug setup, so it would need a bit of dodgy test wiring.

The ECU is operating normally (the trip to the 1100 and back didn't hurt it), as proven by the signals that are going to the injectors and the coils. The fuel pump primes and the dash shows everything as normal.

Any suggestions? Do coils fail on these often?

Cheers,

Treeve
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post #2 of 14 Old 06-05-2016, 2:11 AM
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

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Originally Posted by Treeve View Post
In order to diagnose it, I've tested the injectors (they all fire) and the coils are getting correct signals from the ECU according to the oscilloscope I've got; it sits at 5v then drops to 0v to fire.
That doesn't sound correct. The 929 coils are direct drive, there's no built in ignition amplifier so there should be no 5v signals on them.

You should be seeing a permanent 12v on one side of the coil (i.e. battery voltage) and with the engine cranking the other side should be pulled close to 0v for a few milliseconds by the ECU (dwell period) and when the coil fires you'll see a large positive voltage spike (maybe 200v or so) followed by a lower voltage (maybe 50-60v or so) with some ringing.
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post #3 of 14 Old 06-05-2016, 5:45 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

Thanks BenelliBlade - you've made me go back and check on what I've done...

OK so I've had a bit of a cock-up with my oscilloscope. The probe was set at 10x attenuation, and the vertical axis is 500mV per division. Here's a screenshot from my oscilloscope:



The chart above is therefore:

CHB had no input (the probe was completely disconnected), so it's 0V as a baseline. CHA sits high at about 11V, and drops low to about 6V (or 7.5V every 4th).

This sounds like a bad earth somewhere doesn't it?
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post #4 of 14 Old 06-05-2016, 6:13 AM
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

That doesn't look quite right for sure.

If the scope is set to 500mv/div with a x10 probe, that gives 5v/div. That makes your waveform about 10v peak-peak, but it's all about 2 divisions (10v) higher than channel B which makes no sense if channel B is also the 0v position for channel A. Do the traces for channels A & B sit on top of each other with no input?

Something odd is happening every fourth event. As you are only looking at one coil, you shouldn't see a regular difference like this. It's almost like the three similar waveforms are caused by the other three coils which is puzzling. Just to check, you have the probe connected to the ECU side on one coil, and the probe ground connected to the bike ground (e.g. frame)?

Also look how the DC level of the entire waveform slowly shifts up over the time of a single trace. This suggests you may have had the scope input set to AC coupling for channel A. DC coupling is what you need for measurements like this. If so this could explain the large offset from channel B.
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post #5 of 14 Old 06-05-2016, 6:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

OK, so having gone back through the settings, I need to match the scope to the probe, so it was at 1x attenuation - the scope setting has priority over the probe.

It was also set to DC coupling, I had noticed the slight up-trend, and also the behaviour around the 4th event, but I'm unable to tell what causes it at this point.

I'll spend some more time on it tomorrow afternoon; I've got to start work early tomorrow so I can't get out to the bike again tonight.

Thanks heaps for your help so far; your understanding of this and ability to put it into words to help me is greatly appreciated.

Treeve

Additional: I've now read the manual to my oscilloscope to make more sense of it; I'll get a more useful trend tonight - it has a data log capability which will help, as well as displaying max and min voltages on the screen. I'll grab a spare set of plugs from the shop down the road, a new set of plugs can't hurt. I'll update the thread with a decent trend and some more news later.

Last edited by Treeve; 06-05-2016 at 4:36 PM. Reason: Additional information added after first sign off
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post #6 of 14 Old 06-06-2016, 5:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

OK, so having followed your advice and worked out the settings of my scope, I've also found that it can email the data logs as a CSV file so that I could open it as a spreadsheet.

This sorted out all of the zero and scale issues, so I have the chart below:



The +/- 2V seems to be feedback from the other coil packs since they fire at the same time as these other signals. I'm not too concerned about them in this case, as they share a common power source so there would be feedback of some kind in these circuits.

I've found a set of coil packs on eBay for $60 delivered, so I've gone for them. Also got some plugs waiting for me at the auto shop when I can get down there.

Treeve
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post #7 of 14 Old 07-05-2016, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

OK, so new coils fitted and still no start.

Could HISS be doing something to stop it from starting?
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post #8 of 14 Old 07-06-2016, 3:09 AM
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

Sorry I didn't see the log file you posted before. Some ringing after a spark event is normal, but what I'm struggling to explain is why the resting voltage is 0v and the whole waveform shape is not typical of an inductive ignition system. I would expect to see something like this, not exactly the same in terms of timing and peak voltages but the overall shape should be similar:




Point 1 will initially be at system voltage, likely only 10v or so whilst cranking. The ECU then starts the dwell period, pulling the coil close to 0v to start charging it. When the plug fires at point 3 you should be seeing a pretty high voltage spike on the primary, of the order of 200v-300v.

Are you definitely getting a fairly solid 10v or more during cranking on the non-ECU side of the coil primary? Trying scoping this; you will probably see the voltage here drop a little during the dwell period but not by much (I wouldn't expect more than 1/2volt drop if the wiring is in good condition).
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post #9 of 14 Old 07-16-2016, 7:18 AM
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

this is all over my head..but did you figure it out?
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post #10 of 14 Old 07-17-2016, 5:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

G'day guys,

I've swapped my coils, and picked up a new set of plugs. I've since had a hectic time at work with some overtime and things, so I haven't had a chance to get out there to the bike and actually have a try.

Treeve
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post #11 of 14 Old 08-10-2016, 6:28 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

OK, so I got new plugs fitted last night, cranked it and ... no start.

Battery is a bit low, so I've got that on charge. Should be able to have another look Friday evening. Frustrated, and concerned that I've got a bad ECU - even though it doesn't make any sense why I can't get spark.

I'll also try BenelliBlade's suggestion of scoping the primary on crank then too. Didn't have the scope near the bike last night.

Treeve
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post #12 of 14 Old 08-11-2016, 7:08 AM
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

^ Are you sure that all of the associated wire harnesses related to starting the bike are properly connected after that bit of work with the plugs (as in the ones that might have been undone while fiddling around underneath the airbox to get access to the plugs) ?

-'02 Silver/Black CBR 954RR
-'06 Black/Metallic Gray RC-51

-'11 Graphite Black CBR 1000RR
(sold)
-'08 Pearl Orange CBR 600RR (sold)
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post #13 of 14 Old 08-11-2016, 4:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

I'm fairly confident that if anything was unplugged then I would get a non-crank condition. It still cranks, fuel pump primes, all the normal stuff.

Currently concerned about spark and fuel pressure. If my pressure regulator is playing silly buggers then the ECU wouldn't meter fuel properly and it could be dumping excess fuel in there. Will check connectors, but since I haven't removed anything beyond the two sensors on the airbox I'm not sure what else it could be. Fuel pressure doesn't sound right though since the pump primes and stops - if the FPR was dead it wouldn't stop priming.
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post #14 of 14 Old 08-12-2016, 7:36 AM
 
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Re: CBR929RR Ignition coils?

^ Maybe, maybe not.

If the 929 has a similar ignition pulse generator harness circuit (left unplugged) it will exhibit a "crank, but no start" condition like the 954.

Confirm with the official shop manual and run through all of the possible troubleshooting conditions for "crank, no start" in the MIL trouble code section (believe that is where they are listed).

If everything checks out perhaps it has something to do with the HISS circuit (?) since you mentioned having to swap out ECUs back and forth.

I am not very familiar with HISS since our US bikes did not come equipped with that feature but perhaps the HISS "locks" the ECU out and prevents a "start" if it has sensed that a different ECU was connected to the bike, etc (ya know, one of those "dealership only" type of fixes only).

Sure hope it isn't something like that where a dealer has to reset the HISS/ECU, might get costly...? G'luck !
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