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post #1 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
 
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I Need Your Advice!

Hello, I have been reading on the forum for a few days now and I have decided I would like to get a Fireblade! I found 2 that look promising but I have a few questions about this whole idea. I have not contacted any sellers yet.

Here are the 2 bikes I am looking at:
red--HONDA CBR 954 rr 954rr Red Black low miles Excellent
silver--2002 HONDA CBR 954rr - EXCELLENT CONDITION

I have eight questions:
1. At what millage will a 02-03 954rr need to be rebuilt? I've heard 30K. (silver)

2. How can I tell if someone is attempting odometer fraud on a 954rr? I heard its easy to disconnect the odometer. (red)

3. What identifies some stock parts that should not have been changed with a low mileage bike?

4. What are some parts that I will have to change just because the bike is 13-14 yrs old?

5. I don't think I should worry about the bearing "recall" but what do you think? I've heard some riders call it a downgrade.

6. Which of the above bike looks best to you? Are they priced okay? KBB says they are but yeah...

7. How long will these bikes last? I plan on using it to commute. Will I have overheating problems?

8. How reliable are they? Built like a tank or a Ford Pinto?

Any help you can give me about anything here would be great!! Thank you for your time!
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post #2 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 1:13 PM
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

welcome to The. org

1. rebuilds are not mile specific... they're maintenance (or lack thereof) specific. so no short answer there.

2. you can't. but you can look up the history, if your state keeps those records. NYS doesn't after 10 years.

3. none. too many out there, with too many personalities to try to pinpoint. but the collective of "signs & symptoms" may tell a tale. I'll adress this later.

4. probably battery, stator, Regulator/Rectifier, connectors between them, and all 4 relays.

5. not familiar with this bearing recall

6. the RR2 (silver) looks to be a FAR better maintained machine. I'd shy away from an RR3 with that much sun-bleaching on a reservoir cover, but only 5K miles additionally, the owner uses the bar-mounted EMERGENCY kill. not a good practice. says specifically in the manual NOT To. both are a bit on the high side (in my opinion) but still fairly reasonable. still negotiate. I don't care for the "shorty" exhaust on the RR2 though (red flag). they require a certain amount of back-pressure, and valves will be adversely affected.

7. depending on how well they've been, and will Be taken care of...? they will love you long time I've never had OVERheating problems in either of the Carolinas nor Upstate New York.

8. VERY reliable, fun. nimble & powerful

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post #3 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 1:57 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Thanks for the welcome!

How much does a rebuild run on average?

I was under the impression that it was not backpressure that was needed but the vacuum effect that expelled exhaust created. Like syphoning water. If that makes sense. This was one of the articles that gave me this connotation. Build Your Own Exhaust - Kemper's Web Page. Maybe this is only for cars, but people seem to be sharply divided whenever this question comes up.

Assuming I'm completely wrong about that, how long do you think it would take to cause damage running a shorty?

Are there any bits of advice regarding the fact that the 02 has ~25k miles?

NC is the place to be! I lived near Charlotte for 16 years

Thanks very much for your reply unslow1!
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post #4 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 2:19 PM
 
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

1. As Unslow stated, there are WAAAY to many variables to say that an engine will require rebuild at xxx miles. I've seen them trashed in under 10k by jokers that either have no clue or too much $, take your pick. I'm nearing 40k on mine with no issues, knock on wood. I personally sold my FJ1200 with over 130,000 miles on it, and it was just starting to smoke. There are members here who have gotten 100k. To be honest I expect to be one of them some day, since I love the bike and I tend to hang on to things I like. Treat things with respect, they'll treat you right in return (most of the time).
2&3. I would agree with Unslow.
4. Based on the other owners on this forum I would agree with Unslow also. I will say this, I have not had ANY of the electrical or charging system problems mentioned, but they are quite common. I do live in a very dry region, and my bike is kept indoors.
5. I am not familiar with ant bearing recall either, but 14 years later I don't think it matters much.
6. I might disagree with Unslow here, but it's hard to say as pictures can hide a lot. The SS swing arm is cool, if your into it. I personally think the open pipe and neon crap speaks loudly for the type of person the P.O. is, and it's not a conversation I want to listen to. If you do buy the red one please change that god-awful home spun rear seat cover, what was he thinking? I do agree with Unslow that they are both priced high. I paid $3000 for mine 5 years and 20k miles ago.
7.See answer to #1. Change your oil regularly. Ride it like a grown up not a squid.
8. Agree with Unslow as well, but would add BEST DAMN LOOKING 'BLADE EVER! This will be debated by some, but who's going to argue with Tadao Baba? Not me.

"You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike than other people do in all their life"-Marco Simoncelli

Last edited by fj1200rj; 06-15-2016 at 6:07 AM.
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post #5 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 2:55 PM
 
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardis View Post
Thanks for the welcome!

I was under the impression that it was not backpressure that was needed but the vacuum effect that expelled exhaust created. Like syphoning water. If that makes sense. This was one of the articles that gave me this connotation. Build Your Own Exhaust - Kemper's Web Page. Maybe this is only for cars, but people seem to be sharply divided whenever this question comes up.
It's called "scavenging" and it's a science. Exhaust systems are tuned to an engine to deliver the targeted horsepower/torque curve.It's not so much "back pressure" as it is "wave tuning". From the ID and length of the primaries to the collector and the diameter of the secondary exhaust, it's all very carefully designed to work in conjunction with the camshaft grind and cylinder volume. The "vacuum" created by the velocity of the exhaust gases also aids in "pulling" in fresh air and fuel into the combustion chamber. Look up Bernoulli's Principal, anyone into carburetors or 2 strokes is quite familiar with it. Believing that simply "uncorking" an exhaust will produce better performance is false. More often than not it will kill low end torque, one of the most beautiful things about riding a liter bike. The length/diameter of the system was engineered to work with the back pressure created by the muffler. When you remove the muffler it's as if you increased the size of the pipe, as well as shortening the pipe which reduces exhaust velocity and will have a negative effect on cylinder scavenging. But again, opinions will vary...

The following is an excerpt from an article I found:

I’d like to try to explain some basic exhaust theory and clear up some
issues that may not be completely clear.

Everyone knows the purpose of an exhaust system is to provide a means for
the exhaust gases to be removed from the cylinder. You might wonder why
have an exhaust system at all. Other than the frequent need to muffle the
noise of rapid combustion, why not simply open the exhaust port to the
atmosphere, thereby saving both weight and expense?

Some time back in early internal combustion engine history, it was
discovered that attaching a length of pipe to the exhaust port (probably
to direct the noxious exhaust fumes away from a passenger compartment or
out of a room where a stationary engine was housed) often had an effect on
the performance of that engine. Depending on parameters such as pipe
diameter and length, the performance could be adversely or positively
impacted.

I expect it was clear from the very beginning that exhaust gases have
momentum. What may not have been known at the outset is that they also
exhibit wave properties, specifically those of sound. Both those
properties can be utilized to evacuate the exhaust gases more quickly and
completely. The usual term for this removal process is “scavenging.”

There are two types of scavenging: inertial and wave. Inertial
scavenging works like an aspirator whereby some of the kinetic energy of a
moving fluid stream (air, water, etc, generally in a pipe) is transferred
to the fluid in an adjacent pipe. You may remember from high school
chemistry lab class where you used water traveling through the top of a
“T” fixture to draw a quite powerful vacuum in an attached vessel.

The “T” can be likened to a merge collector as used in virtually all
successful racing cars (although often not in dragsters). The most
effective merge collectors minimize the volume increase at the juncture of
the pipes. If this volume is too large, gas speed is diminished and less
kinetic energy is transferred to the gases in an adjacent pipe. Thus, the
scavenging is less complete. Well, so what if there is a little gas left
in the pipes? Consider the engine cylinder as an extension of the exhaust
pipe. A cylinder with residual exhaust gases has less room available to
accommodate the incoming charge of gas and oxygen. Obviously, the more
gas and air you can get into a cylinder, the more power is developed; that
is why superchargers are so effective.

Not only can scavenging be utilized to empty the cylinders, it also can
help to draw in the new charge, by producing a negative pressure in the
cylinder. This gets tricky because there has to be adequate time in which
both the intake and exhaust valves are open, and there is the potential
problem of the new charge passing right through the cylinder into the
exhaust pipe! Gas is wasted and power is lost. Maybe you can design your
cam such that it closes at just the right time to prevent this from
occurring. Or maybe you can make the exhaust pipes just the right length
so that the reflected sound waves (at a particular engine speed) prevent
the incoming fuel and air from spilling out of the cylinder. More on this
later.

A stock S4 engine has very little valve overlap (some at small valve
openings) and therefore there is only a short time during which scavenging
of the cylinder can be accomplished. Even still, there is opportunity for
significant performance gains with effective scavenging of the primary
exhaust pipes (the first pipes that emanate from the ports) where it’s
possible to produce a negative pressure so that when the exhaust valve
opens, exit speed is increased. The result is increased momentum and
possibly improved cylinder evacuation.

On to wave scavenging. An analogy would be tuned organ pipes in which
their length is adjusted such that a standing wave of a particular desired
length (and frequency) is established. This means that some whole number
of waves will fit exactly within the length of the particular pipe. When
the point of maximum amplitude of a wave comes to the end of the pipe or a
change in diameter, the wave is reflected back up the pipe, but as its
mirror image. Thus a positive pressure wave is reflected as a negative
pressure, or rarefaction, wave which, in turn, helps to draw spent gases
from the pipe/cylinder. Wave scavenging is most effective over a narrow
speed range that can be adjusted by changing the primary pipe length.
Thus a torque or power peak can be designed to occur at a particular
engine speed to suit the application whether it is racing or everyday
driving.

What are crossover headers? There are numerous types of headers, tri-Y,
equal length, stepped, unequal length, crossover, etc. Unequal length
headers are by definition not tuned at a specific rpm; rather each pipe is
tuned for a different speed. They tend to perform better than the stock
manifold and may increase performance over a broad speed range. Because
of their unequal length, each pipe will utilize wave scavenging at a
different speed, thus reducing the effect at any single or narrow band of
speeds. They often have sub-optimal merge collectors and so, do not make
the best use of inertial scavenging. Equal length headers can be
excellent wave scavengers, but often have inferior collectors, so inertial
scavenging is not optimized. The tri-Y design is especially good on
4-cylinder engines and is now being used almost exclusively on NASCAR
engines with 8 cylinders. Stepped headers gradually increase the pipe
diameter going away from the port. I believe at least one of the purposes
is to inexpensively approximate a megaphone which is the most efficient
device for returning the pressurized gases back to the surrounding
atmosphere.

"You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike than other people do in all their life"-Marco Simoncelli

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post #6 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 3:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Okay thanks for that article fj1200rj! It made a lot of sense. It answered my question perfectly!

I've been monitoring cycletrader, craigslist, and dealers near me and these are the cheapest two around for the past month. I have seen a '01 929 at the Honda dealer for $4000 sticker price, but its nothing like the 02-03 in my opinion. RC51's are few near me and high price-to-miles ratio.

It's summer and prices seem to have risen. The seller of red '03 I showed you makes it clear he's firm. KBB says the '03 is worth 4,650. For some reason people think that "retail" is the same as buying from person to person and not from a dealer...

NADA says 2,885 for a '02 and 3,130 for a '03. Is there a way to convince the either seller to follow closer to those prices?

I'm not impressed with the mods on the silver '02 either... I do like that he says he has records of maintenance though.

How many miles will it take to do damage with the shorty?

If anyone else wants to weigh in please do! Thanks!
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post #7 of 19 Old 06-14-2016, 4:09 PM
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

It's really difficult to say with that "stubby" exhaust... depends on how high it's been revving, how long it's been on, all that. Heck, some may say it won't bother at all.

Although I'm not a fan of the SSSA (but it'll surely be unique), the bike has all that documented history You usually can't BUY that! Nothing says you couldn't sell that set-up (for a pretty profit, since the "streetfighter" craze is still on) and put it back to stock form. Again, not big into the LEDs either, but someone may want them too.

Selling prices for sportbike don't usually follow KBB nor NADA values... and things like maintenance records (and SSSAs) surely increase the value.

SO! Despite the mileage, UNwanted SSSA and LEDs, in my humble opinion the RR2 (silver one) is worth the $4500 he's asking. But you bet your butt I'd do everything I could to get him as close to $4K as I could

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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardis View Post

I have eight questions:
1. At what millage will a 02-03 954rr need to be rebuilt? I've heard 30K. (silver)

2. How can I tell if someone is attempting odometer fraud on a 954rr? I heard its easy to disconnect the odometer. (red)

3. What identifies some stock parts that should not have been changed with a low mileage bike?

4. What are some parts that I will have to change just because the bike is 13-14 yrs old?

5. I don't think I should worry about the bearing "recall" but what do you think? I've heard some riders call it a downgrade.

6. Which of the above bike looks best to you? Are they priced okay? KBB says they are but yeah...

7. How long will these bikes last? I plan on using it to commute. Will I have overheating problems?

8. How reliable are they? Built like a tank or a Ford Pinto?

Any help you can give me about anything here would be great!! Thank you for your time!
I'll give you my opinion, and you can ignore it, or consider some of it, or all of it. But it's just an opinion.

First, 1. Rebuild on a Japanese sport bike is about the same time as any Japanese water cooled bike. If you flog any bike, have some squid popping it into the rev limiter at every traffic like to get attention, never lost a race mentality, ANYTHING is going to need a 30,000 mile rebuild. BUT if you ride it maturely, chances are you can go 100,000 miles and still be OK, as long as maintenance is equal. I've had a Bking with 35,000 miles on it and it ran like brand new. It was gently ridden all it's life, and dealer maintained ahead of schedule.

2. The question should be with 6,000 miles on it, what other problems can you expect compared to a biker that rode his motorcycle regularly. I bet the first thing you'll replace is the fuel pump. He could be an idiot that thinks 13 year old fluids in his brake system isn't contaminated and it could be original. You have to ask him and look at his records. I don't know why someone would need to repaint their wheels after 6000 miles. You can find info for bikes like carfax using his VIN. It was done on my Bking before I sold it.

3. Can't help you there.

4. Fluids, chain, tires (he says he did), oil, fork oil, coolant, check for leaks, check if cables are smooth and free. UV light dries out seals and cracks rubber. Moisture rusts the inside of gas tanks, and then you walk away.

5. No clue, I don't own a Fireblade.

6. I think they're priced in season, and I don't buy in season. I buy in winter. I SELL in season. Wave cash in his face, and walk away. He might call you in a few days wanting to see that money again. I've done it a 100 times. I get my price. I was properly trained by a Jewish team of negotiators and the only break I got was to eat some chicken soup.

7. Commuting is not hard on any bike. Racing light to light is, making 168 mph videos for youtube is. Revving the piss out of it in neutral is. It will last. Not as long as a Gold Wing though.

8. Who ever told you a Pinto wasn't built like a tank? I went to college in a Pinto, and I got 120,000 miles out of it and it didn't burn any oil or ever give me trouble. I had one timing belt change. You could have said is it like a Fiat, or is it like a Vega, or is it like a Yugo. Pinto had a 2.3L engine that Ford used in dozens of other cars including Thunderbird, Ranger pick ups, and Mustang for decades. Pinto got bad press on crash related fires.

Those are my opinions. I'd be a lot more comfortable in my 50s, riding on something that I don't feel like I got to be 20 years old to live through on my ride to work/school. When I was 20, I could take physical punishment. I can't anymore. Still, most people tire out on sport bikes and choose something less aggressive for commuting. If you have $4500 to spend, you can get something more specific for the given purpose and have a bigger selection, and that gives you negotiating power or you just go to the next appointment.

I wouldn't give up on either bike until I rode each one, and then I'd buy the black one with his life savings thrown into it.

Last edited by 1926; 06-15-2016 at 12:24 AM.
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post #9 of 19 Old 06-15-2016, 1:24 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Hey thanks 1926! Some good tips! I had no idea Pintos were reliable... I've just always heard they were not.

I texted the seller of the silver '02 and...well...he doesn't paint a good picture. It was a struggle to get him to answer basic questions and he does not have any of the original parts. He's the third owner and he bought it 4 months ago...I have a feeling none of the maintenance records are from him preforming them but rather from the previous owners. All the mods were done by the second owner. Oh and he want $5K but said he posted it for 4.5k on memorial day. I don't think this is going to work...

I'm just going to text the red seller tomorrow. Who knows maybe he lived in Michigan and took tons of time to prep it for winter...

You all have been exceptionally helpful! I learned a lot more than just the answers to my questions. Thank you for your time! If anyone has anything else to say I know I will find use in it!
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

I wouldn't go any further on a guy that only owned a bike 4 months. I bet he's still got the title in the last owners name. Pass. He sounds too much like me.
Red it is. It wouldn't hurt to take it to a good shop in Dallas to look it over for you before you plunk down your hard earned cash. They may find something you might overlook. Always good to get a second set of eyes on a potential purchase. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...21604865925172
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Alright 1926. Thanks again!

Let me show my mechanical ignorance: How does sitting harm the fuel pump? I understand that rubber dry-rots, gas expires, rust forms in the tank and cylinder rings become brittle. Is there any other common deterioration parts-wise?
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Gas turns into all kinds of ugly things sitting for years, and gums up the pump. I've replaced my share of pumps on bikes that sat and even a "new" left over from the dealership, I couldn't leave the showroom until they replaced the fuel pump, and battery.
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Personally I think you could buy better than either of those two bikes. I'd take your time and find something more original that's been owned by a more sensible mature caring owner. You want it original or with all the original parts included and with a full documented service history. They both look like they've had a hard life.
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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardis View Post
Hey thanks 1926! Some good tips! I had no idea Pintos were reliable... I've just always heard they were not.

I texted the seller of the silver '02 and...well...he doesn't paint a good picture. It was a struggle to get him to answer basic questions and he does not have any of the original parts. He's the third owner and he bought it 4 months ago...I have a feeling none of the maintenance records are from him preforming them but rather from the previous owners. All the mods were done by the second owner. Oh and he want $5K but said he posted it for 4.5k on memorial day. I don't think this is going to work...

I'm just going to text the red seller tomorrow. Who knows maybe he lived in Michigan and took tons of time to prep it for winter...

You all have been exceptionally helpful! I learned a lot more than just the answers to my questions. Thank you for your time! If anyone has anything else to say I know I will find use in it!
Ah, so my instincts about the owner of the silver bike weren't far off.

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Re: I Need Your Advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardis View Post
5. I don't think I should worry about the bearing "recall" but what do you think? I've heard some riders call it a downgrade.
I assume you are talking about the taper roller steering head bearings that Honda would swap for standard ball races if the owner wanted? The feeling was that the taper rollers contributed to steering instability, though plenty of people have had no problem with them. I personally wouldn't worry about them provided the bearings are in good condition, i.e. not loose or notchy.
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