Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 16 Old 10-18-2004, 3:22 AM Thread Starter
 
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Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Here's the thing. A while back I removed my head on my 00 929 due to a pair of bent valves. (CCT mishap)

After putting everything back together with the aide of a friend (you'll come to know why he's not much of a friend later). We come to the camshafts and putting them back on the head. While I go inside for a break, I leave him....very trusting to help me out and finish the install of the cam caps/holders and bolts that secure them down to the head. (Note: I had a manual through every step of the way)

While I trusted him to finish that portion of the rebuild (Him being an Automotive mechanic) I went in to clean up. Come back 45 mins later to notice him putting the valve cover back on. (SWEET, PROGRESS). Get everything back together....no issues.

Fast Forward >>>>>>>

About 2 months ago, I noticed my engine had been making more noise than usual and a drop in oil pressure. I thought the worst. I parked it (the same day) and left it alone for a while. Nabbed a new job, quickly became busy and left the bike sitting for over a month. Now....that month later, I begin taking things apart again. Just the top-end. Remove the Tank, Airbox, Valve cover. What do I notice?

One of the bolts that secures the holder to the head, is missing. Yes. Missing. Each cap/holder requires 8 bolts. I count 7. Im pissed. Research some more and find that not only the bolt missing could have caused the loud clattering/knocking but that also a bolt had backed out. After checking all the bolts with a torque wrench, I noticed one bolt kept turning. (the bolt had stripped the threads on the head - I presume to overtightening)

Summary 1: One bolt missing, one stripped, one bolt backed out due to undertightening. All on the same cam cap/holder.

So, that was the beginning of September. It's now 2 months later and the weather is getting gorgeous here in Austin, TX. I kick it into gear tonight and head out into my trusty garage and look at what I had started and never finished. I remove the cam cap that so faithfully kept in tact thru the Bolt ordeal, and pulled out my tap and die set.

Bulletin here: I noticed on Ron Ayers that 2 of the 8 bolts that hold the cap down, are LONGER than the other 6.
Part Number: 90017-MA6-000
Description: BOLT, FLG (6X45.5)
as opposed to
Part Number: 90019-MA6-000
Description: BOLT, FLG (6X39.5)

Difference in length are in BOLD

So, in essence I need to order 1 longer bolt.

Question: I am going to tap the hole out on the head. From what I can see the size/thread pitch of the original bolt is 6mmX1.00. For me to helicoil/timesert that hole, how big will I have to tap the head? 7mmX1.00? 8mmX1.00?

Someone with experience in this area please help. I want to get my bike up and running quick, but not quick enough to where I look something over. (Like what caused all this mess in the first place)

I have a Manual right here that I am borrowing, much thanks to Mavic here. I haven't forgot about ya man, just been busy with work. Haven't touched the bike in 2 months.

Here is what I am looking at with Ron Ayers: http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/200_03...inder_head.bmp
The bolts (#11) I need 1 of. That's the 45.5mm long bolt.
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post #2 of 16 Old 10-18-2004, 10:48 AM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Sorry about the problem with the assembly of the head. That sucks.

As far as the helicoil you need to purchase a 6mmX1.00 helicoil kit. That will come with the proper tap and some helicoils.

My recomendation is that you purchase a complete set of head bolts. I know Honda says they're re-useable, but you've already had them in and out once and you have no idea how they were torqued. You do not want one of them to snap on you during re-assembly.
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post #3 of 16 Old 10-18-2004, 2:13 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel
Sorry about the problem with the assembly of the head. That sucks.

As far as the helicoil you need to purchase a 6mmX1.00 helicoil kit. That will come with the proper tap and some helicoils.

My recomendation is that you purchase a complete set of head bolts. I know Honda says they're re-useable, but you've already had them in and out once and you have no idea how they were torqued. You do not want one of them to snap on you during re-assembly.


Listen to Joel, he's been there before . . .
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post #4 of 16 Old 10-19-2004, 2:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

When I assembled everything back after the valve replacement, I torqued the headbolts to spec with my torque wrench. The only thing I didn't do myself were the cam caps/holder that just so happened to fail on me without my supervision. Trust me, I am very meticulous with the exception of what I am about to type later in this post. I am in all honesty trying to do this job with the head still on. I am confident I can swing the motor down.

Hell the front half of the bike is off anyway. I have no problems purchasing new headbolts but like I said I am sure I can get away with the motor in-tact. I don't want to shortcut it completely but I KNOW it can be done.

Where can I pick up a helicoil kit? Would local parts stores have anything like that? I borrowed a tap and die set and before I return it, is it of any use to me or will the helicoil kit come with what I need?

What am I looking at pricewise?

Last edited by victoRR; 10-19-2004 at 2:54 AM.
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post #5 of 16 Old 10-19-2004, 12:44 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Napa stores have the kits. The price is about $35.00 and it includes tap, tool and inserts for one thread size. Make sure you use oil when cutting the threads and run the tap in and out of the new threads a couple of times to get them cleaned up. Be careful with the shavings.

I think you'll need the Heli-coil tap because it is a different size than the standard sizes in a normal tap and die kit. If someone is sure on this, please chime in.

Most autoparts stores will not have the Helicoil kits, or will only have the sparkplug sizes. I tried several stores before I found that Napa had them.

Last edited by Zippy; 10-19-2004 at 1:05 PM.
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post #6 of 16 Old 10-19-2004, 2:32 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Zippy's right on with the kit suggestions.

If you are sure the head bolts are torqued correctly you should be OK there. Not sure about the cap bolts. They're not huge and I suspect they won't handle a large over-torque situation very well. You may want to inspect and / or replace the copper crush washers that go under the cap bolts.

Another thing I started thinking about is your cam shafts. I wonder if there's a possibility they may be bent as a result of this. It may be worth your while to inspect them while you have the cams out.
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post #7 of 16 Old 10-19-2004, 2:53 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

The heli coild kit should include the tap, called an STI tap, inserts, and an insertion tool, and sometime the drill you'll need. 99% of the hundreds of helicoils I install every year I can start by hand...but those M6 1.0 always need the darn insertion tool to prewind them. The inserts come in 3 lengths, the medium ones should work fine. Depending on how deep the hole is, you need to make sure you tap it deep enough. If its a shallow hole, you may need to modify your tap by grinding some of the end off to make it into a plug or bottom tap. On a normal taper tap, the first 5-7 threads dont cut to full depth so your hole has to be at least twice as deep as your insert. If the hole is shallow, drill it out, tap it as deep as is will go, then grind the end of the tap a few threads off and retap to get those lower threads. When you wind the insert in and break off the retaining tab, be sure you retrieve it with some tweasers or something, dont leave it in there or let it fall in your motor!
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post #8 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 11:08 AM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

The ** HELI - COIL ** kit you need is , Part Number - HLC5403-6 , It cost's
$ 95.00 here in Canada, The kit part number is the Same in the States, I order them from The STATES on a regular basis.The Kit will contain every thing you need to do the Job. Use some DRILL / TAP fluid to drill and tap the new hole the cutting fluid will help. If you don't have any you can use Vegatable oil in a Pinch. After you drill and tap the hole clean it out with some ** M. E. K. ** or even some Varsol will work, Make sure the new hole is dry , Put some ** LOCTITE 271 ** on the O/D of the Heli - Coil prior to installation, I use a lot of HELI - Coil's at my JOB, We Rebuild HELI COPTER
Turbine Engine's and use a lot of them in the MAGNESIUM Gear Boxes. I replaced the Cam's In My 954 With The ** ERION PERFORMANCE ** Cams and yes the Cap bolt's would be Easy to Strip Hope This Help's.
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post #9 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 12:07 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

The 271 Loc-tite is the red stuff?
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post #10 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 1:37 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

VictoRR,
No worries on the manual. Just get the bike running right and then give me a call when you are done. If you need any tools or help you can always give me a call on my cell and I will do my best to get the stuff or help you need. Best of luck!!

Once you finalize the size of helicoil you need, post it up and I will try and get the appropriate pieces to get the job done.

Can you say 6 in a ROW!!!!

Last edited by Mavic; 10-21-2004 at 1:43 PM.
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post #11 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 1:50 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

** Loctite 217 ** is RED High Strength used for Fastener's under 1 inch in damp and oily condition,s. You could also use ** Loctite 290 ** Wicking Grade ( Medium Strength) green / blue , I used the 271 on my 954 it tend's to work better in Wet / Oily Condition's and is Also ROLL"S ROYCE certified for use in Aircfaft Engines and Gear - boxes. removeing bolt,s with ** 271 ** on them is a Bit more Difficult but won't damage Thread's as say * Loctite 609 *
( Retaining compound ) this type you do not want to use unless you want the Bolt's in Perminently

Last edited by Machinist; 10-21-2004 at 1:50 PM.
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 2:26 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Loctite 609 means "never having to say I'm sorry . . ."
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-21-2004, 8:44 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Quote:
Originally Posted by abtech
Loctite 609 means "never having to say I'm sorry . . ."
haha

Victor is the "friend" that helped you a Ford mechanic because that would explain the whole thing. My friend is a Ford mechanic but I make sure I'm always there when he's working on my car (with the execption of the fuel pump cause I had to have the car towed to his house and I lived 18 miles away at school). I don't completely know what I'm doing but I know when he's shortcutting something. Ford mechanics typically do NOT torque anything.

if you can't convince them, confuse them.
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post #14 of 16 Old 11-16-2004, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR929RE
haha

Victor is the "friend" that helped you a Ford mechanic because that would explain the whole thing. My friend is a Ford mechanic but I make sure I'm always there when he's working on my car (with the execption of the fuel pump cause I had to have the car towed to his house and I lived 18 miles away at school). I don't completely know what I'm doing but I know when he's shortcutting something. Ford mechanics typically do NOT torque anything.

Well I can assure you I am not a Ford Mechanic, but i've owned 4 Fords in the past. All Mustangs :-) Including one 11 second Mustang with just minimal bolt ons.

I've had everything apart but i've been too busy to get what I need. I know the size of the helicoil I need, now it's a matter of finding it at a local parts store and gettin to it. The head is currently sitting on the ground with plastic around it.

I am going to call Ron Ayers finally to get my headbolts (just in case) and all new cam cap bolts with washers (just in case). Oops I forgot about the head gasket too.


All this work and I should just do a 954RR swap. What was it that needed to be extended? I know it's one of those senor plugs/wires.
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post #15 of 16 Old 11-16-2004, 11:07 PM
 
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Re: Technical-Head/Camshaft assembly question

Quote:
Originally Posted by victoRR
Well I can assure you I am not a Ford Mechanic, but i've owned 4 Fords in the past. All Mustangs :-) Including one 11 second Mustang with just minimal bolt ons.

I've had everything apart but i've been too busy to get what I need. I know the size of the helicoil I need, now it's a matter of finding it at a local parts store and gettin to it. The head is currently sitting on the ground with plastic around it.

I am going to call Ron Ayers finally to get my headbolts (just in case) and all new cam cap bolts with washers (just in case). Oops I forgot about the head gasket too.


All this work and I should just do a 954RR swap. What was it that needed to be extended? I know it's one of those senor plugs/wires.
what bolt ons did you do? my friend has a 88 mustang with a 347 stroker that he built and a Tremec. Last year he did 12.2, this year he put a bigger intake on (the one he shoulda did to begin with) and 4.30s in the rear end and a couple other little things and got it dyno tuned and did a 12.1 this year. And those are on ET Street slicks. sucks eh spent like $2000 to go a tenth faster.


the 954 swap would be so sweet. I like the looks of the 929 better (don't like all the sapce above the 954 headlight) plus there's no Erion 954. But the 980 overbore would also be sweet.

if you can't convince them, confuse them.
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