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max effort 954 engine for the street?

9K views 60 replies 6 participants last post by  bladeracer 
#1 ·
With complete engines showing up cheap on the bay, I was wondering what could be done to one for street riding.

Anyone know? Obviously, a big bore/stroke kit isn't possible and going nuts with compression won't work. Is there room over the factory build level that a good balance and blueprint with lighter and stronger parts would be worthwhile?

I'm assuming the 1k motor wouldn't fit...

Just curious...
Dan
 
#2 ·
With complete engines showing up cheap on the bay, I was wondering what could be done to one for street riding.

Anyone know? Obviously, a big bore/stroke kit isn't possible and going nuts with compression won't work. Is there room over the factory build level that a good balance and blueprint with lighter and stronger parts would be worthwhile?

I'm assuming the 1k motor wouldn't fit...

Just curious...
Dan
I don't understand why big bore/stroke is obviously not going to work?
You can bore the 954 1mm to 980cc but the cost of pistons, boring and replating makes the bang for buck very low - possibly as much $500/hp. The old rule of thumb was the percentage of extra capacity is worth around the same in horsepower.
Consider that boring the 929 1mm to 954, the extra 26cc or 2.8% was worth about 10hp _including_ the 2mm bigger throttle bodies and lighter pistons. 5-6hp purely from the bigger bore would be reasonable I reckon. Of course, there'd also be a gain from the new rings, so you could see double that on the dyno depending on how worn the engine is to begin with.

I don't know how far it can be stroked but you would need custom rods and/or pistons. Stroking gives a bigger midrange improvement than boring but increases piston speed so you'd want to reduce your redline. With crank work and rods the cost per hp is similar to boring.

Compression provides minimal power gain at the expense of a lot of heat so I wouldn't recommend it for purely road use. You should be able to go to around 13.5:1 on pump fuel. That might score you 2-3% but expect to have to deal with combating heat - probably needing a bigger radiator which adds weight. The rule of thumb is 2% per 1.0 increase in ratio I think.

Cams would be the biggest gain I think without having to go into the engine.
Whatever you do inside the engine I think you'd want to start with a full race exhaust system and cams regardless.

The dual-injection off the 1000RR could be a step up as well but would require the ECU, harness and instrument cluster.

You could also make a stock 1000RR engine fit the 954 frame and swingarm mount but for the cost of getting an engine and modifying the frame to take it I don't know that the extra 10hp or so would be worth it.

The cheapest option would be bolting a turbo on and just run low boost. Without even going into the engine you should get an easy 200hp without over-stressing the engine. You can wind the boost right down when you don't need it so the bike behaves like a standard 954 and you can keep it for your next bike when you sell this one.
 
#4 ·
Thanks, Bladeracer. Very much appreciated.

The reason I said big bore/stroke would be out is because of the cylinder coating and because frankly there's not a lot of bore room left on these cases anyways.

I like the idea of a possible stroker kit with some increase in compression. It would be interesting to see what could be done there. Dropping redline would be no big deal for me.

This bike has the full sato exhaust and custom pc3 map. One of the big goals for me out of the engine rework would be to smoothen out the engine vibes.

I would like to do cams and head work on this bike, but the one plot I saw where someone had installed cams showed a lot of lost power below 9k where it then picked up and posted higher numbers. For street riding, that shouldn't be a necessary compromise at all. Perhaps a touch of cam timing change there would've helped.

The turbo option does sound interesting. I'd hate to lose the sato, and add even more weight in the process, but that could be an interesting project to try with the stock headpipes.

Thanks again,
Dan
 
#15 · (Edited)
The reason I said big bore/stroke would be out is because of the cylinder coating and because frankly there's not a lot of bore room left on these cases anyways.

I like the idea of a possible stroker kit with some increase in compression. It would be interesting to see what could be done there. Dropping redline would be no big deal for me.

This bike has the full sato exhaust and custom pc3 map. One of the big goals for me out of the engine rework would be to smoothen out the engine vibes.

I would like to do cams and head work on this bike, but the one plot I saw where someone had installed cams showed a lot of lost power below 9k where it then picked up and posted higher numbers. For street riding, that shouldn't be a necessary compromise at all. Perhaps a touch of cam timing change there would've helped.

The turbo option does sound interesting. I'd hate to lose the sato, and add even more weight in the process, but that could be an interesting project to try with the stock headpipes.

Thanks again,
Dan
The cylinder coating isn't a deal breaker but the bore spacing restricts how far you can go. 76mm is the maximum bore unless you were to machine iron liners and slot them into the block which might let you go to 77mm but I'd expect the engine to be very close to the limit.

I've never noticed any engine vibes so I don't know what you're trying to address there. Have you ridden other 954's and found the same thing?

Almost all engine mods take midrange power (sportsbikes generally don't have any bottom end - lower third of the tach) and push it to the topend for greater peak power. If you want to improve midrange as well as gain power I think boring or stroking are the only practical options.

The turbo doesn't add that much weight, especially when weighed against the huge power increase with no compromise to the bike's normal ridablity. Perhaps 6-8kg depending on what turbo you use. The OEM 929/954 headers are titanium so you'd need to be able to weld ti if you want to make the manifold from the stock headers. I think it's just easier to make the manifold from scratch out of steel.
 
#5 ·
The question is how much do you want to spend and how much power do you want to make. I'm going to break it down in stages from what I've found with my own bike.

Stage 1: Basically you already have this: Full exhaust, gutted airbox, PC3r, and a couple of holes cut in the inner fairing for airflow to the intakes. The PC3r is a must considering how much power is available by messing with the timing.

Stage 2: Port the head and shave it .020 to get the compression up over 12.5:1. Then install a custom grind cam on the intake side and leave your exhaust cam stock. Also, don't forget to add a set of inner springs (from the exhausts on the inside of your intake springs to prevent valve float). This will get you over 160rwhp and you'll only lose a bit of response below 2100rpm. Above that you will have more power everywhere. Aftermarket cams available for our bikes are poorly designed. They usually have more duration on the exhaust than necessary with our heads intake to exhaust flow ratio of 83% at .400. Leaving the stock exhaust, or using an intake cam on the exhaust side is a better option (using the intake requires welding the cam position sensors pick-up onto it). Using the intake cam on the exhaust will put you at about 164rwhp.

Stage 3: This is what I'm up to now. Lightened and stroked stock crank to 58mm. Using 06 R1 connecting rods (2mm shorter than our rods, but you have to narrow them) and custom CP 76mm pistons for a CR of 12.7:1. I don't want to go higher because I want to retain my stock radiator and not overheat in traffic. Then add 30mm titanium intake valves, titanium retainers, APE springs, serdi valve job and more porting. Then combine it with 06 1000rr throttle bodies using the 954 stock injectors and harness. I'm going to start it with the cam setup I have now, but later I'll add wilder cams to get over 180hp.

That will put me at 1052cc with my 375lb full of fuel bike. I can't wait hit the races this winter when it's done. :thumb:
 
#8 ·
Excellent stuff.
Sounds very similar to my plan for my 929.
Who did your crank and what did it cost?
You're using the dual-injector 1000RR throttle bodies but with the 954 ECU?
At 168kg with 13kg of fuel puts your bike 8kg lighter than my 929!
You must be running mag or carbon wheels?
 
#7 ·
By the way Bladeracer, the bore increase by itself usually doesn't add more horsepower, just more torque. That is, unless the power was still climbing into the rev limiter; then the extra displacement would allow you to use more of the available airflow before you hit the limiter. The 954s increase in power came from more than just it's throttle bodies and bore increase. The cams also have 3 degrees more duration and .1mm more lift. Then add the 0.8% increase in power that came just from the compression increase from 11.3 to 11.5. Oh, and the timing curve is also a bit more aggressive. Honda basically turned every knob up just a little bit so they could make the bike faster without ruining it's character.

In my opinion, some of the best mods for a 929 are planing the head for more compression and using 954 cams and throttle bodies. My friend has this combo right now and he can now hang pretty good with the rest of the open class bikes in our group, he used to be the slowest except for a guy who rides a gixxer 750.
 
#11 ·
Yes, I guess I should have included all the improvements in the 954 to explain the hp. I was merely indicating that it didn't gain its extra 10hp just because it's 1mm bigger than the 929 :)
I have 954 throttle bodies already and I love the difference they make. That's why I'd like to try the 1000RR bodies as well.
I have a set of 954 cams but haven't tried them in the 929 but I will if I can get back on the track this season, along with the 954 ECU and harness.
 
#10 ·
honda3x23 I've never lost to a nitrous only bike. Nitrous is a great way to destroy your engine, specially $300 dry kits that don't include timing retard modules, window switches, or lean cutoff switches. Even with all the right stuff, with the right tune, and someone who watches his temperature guage. There are still a few things that can and do go wrong all the time. I have a close friend that is on his 3rd engine (1000rr), this last time his nitrous solenoid got stuck open. Took the ring landing off two pistons.
 
#12 ·
honda3x23 I've never lost to a nitrous only bike.
Surely you're not doing all this engine work just for drag racing?
That'd be a waste. Why aren't you circuit racing it?

But I agree, nitrous is crap for anything but drag racing.
 
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#32 ·
Blorton - What's this about engine vibes? I've been on a bunch or 954s and 929s and I can tell you that the engines are very smooth. I mean every 4 cyl has vibes, but on the 954 they are relatively smooth. I would look at your clutch or maybe check your compression. You might have something wrong with your particular engine.

Go get dyno'd. If you don't have at least 140, there's something wrong. I usually see between 141 & 149 rwhp for a hindle/arata full exhaust with a PC3r and a gutted airbox.
 
#38 ·
I've only run the '98 GSXR750 and the 929 at the same track. I think I've recorded one single lap on the 929 faster than I did on the 750. In the wet I can easily outride the 929 on my GSXR despite the 929's more linear power delivery (and 15% more power). In the wet, what the 929 gains coming off the turns it loses badly to the GSXR under brakes and cornering.
They were very different bikes though as the 750 was run to World Superbike regs in '03 (change pretty much anything except the main frame and engine cases) and the 929 was setup to run Production Superbike in '04 which has very limited modification. Now the 929 being too old for Superbike, I'm open to modifying whatever I want just for club racing which is much for fun :)
 
#42 ·
I am interested in Falicon's price for the +4mm crank work as I haven't found anybody I trust to do a high-revving bike crank locally yet.
Have Falicon welded the crank pins up and machined them down to run 34mm R1 bearings? Or have they machined them down to 32mm with no welding and you're shimming the bigends to 32mm or running custom 2.5mm thick bearing shells?
My preference would be to avoid building the crank up with weld but Falicon know what they're doing. It would certainly make it easier if stock R1 rod specs can be used. Falicon don't consider widening the crank journals 0.8mm to be an option rather than machining the rods? Just wondering how machining 0.4mm off each side of the rod affects any metal treatment of the rod.
Have you asked Carrillo if they'd machine some R1 rods for you?
 
#44 ·
The r1 rods have 37mm big end diameter, the stock rods are 39mm. I don't know how much they had to weld up ~1 mm considering the 4mm stroker, but I'll tell you it looks beautiful. You know, having them widen the journals is a pretty good idea. I didn't think to ask them if they could, I had the equipment to narrow rods in my lab to I didn't even think about it. Lately I've been having second thoughts about the r1 rods. I thought they would be ok considering that my pistons are lighter than the r1 pistons and my piston speeds with my lower redline are far below what they see. But then a fellow rider told me that he threw a rod on his stock 06 R1 and that he knows a few others that have had the same problem. He claims the newer 07+ rods are much stronger, but I don't know if they are the same dimentions. I might have to buy a set on ebay just to measure them.
 
#50 ·
#51 ·
i was riding 2up in town with an extremely attractive promiscuous young lady, who told me how much she enjoyed the vibration when the rpm's were high. so i did what any man who is honest with himself would do... i had'er cranked out anywhere from 10k-13.5k (13.75k redline) for about 2-3 minutes, when i heard it knock. so i instantly rolled of the throttle and it broke @ aprox. 9k rpm's

killed the case, cylinder, crank, clutch assy, shift assy, bearings and obviously the rod. thankfully it in broke in the downstroke, so no piston contact with the head. 3 weeks out of warranty, yamaha was gracious enough to cover parts, but not labor. (@ $1750)

had it rebuilt with all new parts except for the transmission and head, everything else was replaced. 93 days after that the engine lost oil pressure and spun several bearings, i tore it down to find the clutch boss nut had not had its ends smashed in (to lock it) so it backed out allowing the oil pump sprocket behind the clutch basket to freespin.

when i brought it up to the svc manager i was told it came with a 90 day shop warranty and i was SOL.
 
#52 ·
i was riding 2up in town with an extremely attractive promiscuous young lady, who told me how much she enjoyed the vibration when the rpm's were high. so i did what any man who is honest with himself would do... i had'er cranked out anywhere from 10k-13.5k (13.75k redline) for about 2-3 minutes, when i heard it knock. so i instantly rolled of the throttle and it broke @ aprox. 9k rpm's

killed the case, cylinder, crank, clutch assy, shift assy, bearings and obviously the rod. thankfully it in broke in the downstroke, so no piston contact with the head. 3 weeks out of warranty, yamaha was gracious enough to cover parts, but not labor. (@ $1750)

had it rebuilt with all new parts except for the transmission and head, everything else was replaced. 93 days after that the engine lost oil pressure and spun several bearings, i tore it down to find the clutch boss nut had not had its ends smashed in (to lock it) so it backed out allowing the oil pump sprocket behind the clutch basket to freespin.

when i brought it up to the svc manager i was told it came with a 90 day shop warranty and i was SOL.
Not staking the nut though isn't a warranty failure, it's negligence.
Thanks for sharing though as I'd hate to have this happen to a $2000 stroker crank :)
 
#54 ·
Thanks for all the great information, guys!

I found out that cams are still available from Web Cams. Here are the specs they offer on a regrind:

.360/.360 (valve lift)
266°/270° (duration)
244°/246° (duration at .050)


Does anyone know what the factory 954 camshaft numbers are? Also - the notes for this one say to use F4 factory shims for adjustment - does that mean I shouldn't use the "normal" shim kit? I was planning to order one of the hotcams boxes.

For under $500, the web cams looks a great next step. (Oops, looks like they also require high compression pistons. Hmm...)


Also - to answer the helibars question, I know they advertised a pound of weight savings with them. But to be honest, I'd be amazed you guys are still running the stock bars with all the attention to weight loss you are doing.

Thanks,
Dan



Thanks,
Dan
 
#56 ·
Thanks for all the great information, guys!

I found out that cams are still available from Web Cams. Here are the specs they offer on a regrind:

.360/.360 (valve lift)
266°/270° (duration)
244°/246° (duration at .050)


Does anyone know what the factory 954 camshaft numbers are? Also - the notes for this one say to use F4 factory shims for adjustment - does that mean I shouldn't use the "normal" shim kit? I was planning to order one of the hotcams boxes.

For under $500, the web cams looks a great next step. (Oops, looks like they also require high compression pistons. Hmm...)


Also - to answer the helibars question, I know they advertised a pound of weight savings with them. But to be honest, I'd be amazed you guys are still running the stock bars with all the attention to weight loss you are doing.

Thanks,
Dan



Thanks,
Dan
I believe I have a friend that ordered up an intake cam just like mine to run on his bike. It's gring #116 for the intake only (270degrees/246@.050/.360 lift). His bike got stolen a couple weeks ago and he still has the cam in the box. I could ask him how much he wan't for it if you'd like.
You don't need higher compression pistons, and any shim kit will work as long as it has the shim size you need. I just measured my clearance and measured my current clearance, then I ordered the shims I needed from the dealer. I've used this cam with the stock exhaust and with an intake cam on the exhaust side. If you aren't going to shave the head I would recommend you use the stock exhaust cam. Basically, you'll lose some throttle response below 2100rpm. From 3K to 6K it feels like the stock cam, from 6K to 9.5K it pulls a little stronger than stock, from there up it rips into the limiter HARD! If you've ever ridden an 04-05 zx10r with a full exhaust then you'll have a pretty good idea of how it feels.
 
#55 ·
Also - re: the turbo thing, what I meant about using the stock head pipes is that I would fab up a flange to mount a turbo to the end of that. That'd be badass and thrifty.

Also - I cheaped out when I got the pc3 and did not opt for the "r" version. Ooops. At the time, I was given the impression it wasn't worth much for a stock motor.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Also - re: the turbo thing, what I meant about using the stock head pipes is that I would fab up a flange to mount a turbo to the end of that. That'd be badass and thrifty.

Also - I cheaped out when I got the pc3 and did not opt for the "r" version. Ooops. At the time, I was given the impression it wasn't worth much for a stock motor.
Do you mean mounting the turbo on the end of the header where the HTEV goes? It's probably doable but I really doubt it'd be easy as there's very little room under the engine for a turbo. The turbo works best when mounted as close to the exhaust ports as possible. The simplest way to make the manifold is cut the headers so they're seperated and bolt them up to the head. Then twist them all in towards each other at the position you want to mount the turbo, cut them off along the same plane and weld a flange across them. You will want to bend at least two of them to cross behind or in front of the others so that you end up with a square flange rather than a long rectangle. The best way though would be to mount the turbo where you want it and then take the bike to any exhaust place and ask them to make you a manifold to fit :)

The PC3R is the older serial version so it's usually cheaper than the PC3USB. I'm running a PC2 myself which has ignition mapping like the PC3R. I've never used the ignition mapping though.
 
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