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post #1 of 61 Old 06-28-2009, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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max effort 954 engine for the street?

With complete engines showing up cheap on the bay, I was wondering what could be done to one for street riding.

Anyone know? Obviously, a big bore/stroke kit isn't possible and going nuts with compression won't work. Is there room over the factory build level that a good balance and blueprint with lighter and stronger parts would be worthwhile?

I'm assuming the 1k motor wouldn't fit...

Just curious...
Dan
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post #2 of 61 Old 06-28-2009, 2:06 PM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Originally Posted by Blorton View Post
With complete engines showing up cheap on the bay, I was wondering what could be done to one for street riding.

Anyone know? Obviously, a big bore/stroke kit isn't possible and going nuts with compression won't work. Is there room over the factory build level that a good balance and blueprint with lighter and stronger parts would be worthwhile?

I'm assuming the 1k motor wouldn't fit...

Just curious...
Dan
I don't understand why big bore/stroke is obviously not going to work?
You can bore the 954 1mm to 980cc but the cost of pistons, boring and replating makes the bang for buck very low - possibly as much $500/hp. The old rule of thumb was the percentage of extra capacity is worth around the same in horsepower.
Consider that boring the 929 1mm to 954, the extra 26cc or 2.8% was worth about 10hp _including_ the 2mm bigger throttle bodies and lighter pistons. 5-6hp purely from the bigger bore would be reasonable I reckon. Of course, there'd also be a gain from the new rings, so you could see double that on the dyno depending on how worn the engine is to begin with.

I don't know how far it can be stroked but you would need custom rods and/or pistons. Stroking gives a bigger midrange improvement than boring but increases piston speed so you'd want to reduce your redline. With crank work and rods the cost per hp is similar to boring.

Compression provides minimal power gain at the expense of a lot of heat so I wouldn't recommend it for purely road use. You should be able to go to around 13.5:1 on pump fuel. That might score you 2-3% but expect to have to deal with combating heat - probably needing a bigger radiator which adds weight. The rule of thumb is 2% per 1.0 increase in ratio I think.

Cams would be the biggest gain I think without having to go into the engine.
Whatever you do inside the engine I think you'd want to start with a full race exhaust system and cams regardless.

The dual-injection off the 1000RR could be a step up as well but would require the ECU, harness and instrument cluster.

You could also make a stock 1000RR engine fit the 954 frame and swingarm mount but for the cost of getting an engine and modifying the frame to take it I don't know that the extra 10hp or so would be worth it.

The cheapest option would be bolting a turbo on and just run low boost. Without even going into the engine you should get an easy 200hp without over-stressing the engine. You can wind the boost right down when you don't need it so the bike behaves like a standard 954 and you can keep it for your next bike when you sell this one.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #3 of 61 Old 06-28-2009, 3:14 PM
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

bladeracer, you need to write a book...I would buy it
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post #4 of 61 Old 06-28-2009, 4:39 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

Thanks, Bladeracer. Very much appreciated.

The reason I said big bore/stroke would be out is because of the cylinder coating and because frankly there's not a lot of bore room left on these cases anyways.

I like the idea of a possible stroker kit with some increase in compression. It would be interesting to see what could be done there. Dropping redline would be no big deal for me.

This bike has the full sato exhaust and custom pc3 map. One of the big goals for me out of the engine rework would be to smoothen out the engine vibes.

I would like to do cams and head work on this bike, but the one plot I saw where someone had installed cams showed a lot of lost power below 9k where it then picked up and posted higher numbers. For street riding, that shouldn't be a necessary compromise at all. Perhaps a touch of cam timing change there would've helped.

The turbo option does sound interesting. I'd hate to lose the sato, and add even more weight in the process, but that could be an interesting project to try with the stock headpipes.

Thanks again,
Dan
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post #5 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:21 AM
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

The question is how much do you want to spend and how much power do you want to make. I'm going to break it down in stages from what I've found with my own bike.

Stage 1: Basically you already have this: Full exhaust, gutted airbox, PC3r, and a couple of holes cut in the inner fairing for airflow to the intakes. The PC3r is a must considering how much power is available by messing with the timing.

Stage 2: Port the head and shave it .020 to get the compression up over 12.5:1. Then install a custom grind cam on the intake side and leave your exhaust cam stock. Also, don't forget to add a set of inner springs (from the exhausts on the inside of your intake springs to prevent valve float). This will get you over 160rwhp and you'll only lose a bit of response below 2100rpm. Above that you will have more power everywhere. Aftermarket cams available for our bikes are poorly designed. They usually have more duration on the exhaust than necessary with our heads intake to exhaust flow ratio of 83% at .400. Leaving the stock exhaust, or using an intake cam on the exhaust side is a better option (using the intake requires welding the cam position sensors pick-up onto it). Using the intake cam on the exhaust will put you at about 164rwhp.

Stage 3: This is what I'm up to now. Lightened and stroked stock crank to 58mm. Using 06 R1 connecting rods (2mm shorter than our rods, but you have to narrow them) and custom CP 76mm pistons for a CR of 12.7:1. I don't want to go higher because I want to retain my stock radiator and not overheat in traffic. Then add 30mm titanium intake valves, titanium retainers, APE springs, serdi valve job and more porting. Then combine it with 06 1000rr throttle bodies using the 954 stock injectors and harness. I'm going to start it with the cam setup I have now, but later I'll add wilder cams to get over 180hp.

That will put me at 1052cc with my 375lb full of fuel bike. I can't wait hit the races this winter when it's done.
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post #6 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:35 AM
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

spend 300 dollars on a nitrous kit, enjoy.
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post #7 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:38 AM
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

By the way Bladeracer, the bore increase by itself usually doesn't add more horsepower, just more torque. That is, unless the power was still climbing into the rev limiter; then the extra displacement would allow you to use more of the available airflow before you hit the limiter. The 954s increase in power came from more than just it's throttle bodies and bore increase. The cams also have 3 degrees more duration and .1mm more lift. Then add the 0.8% increase in power that came just from the compression increase from 11.3 to 11.5. Oh, and the timing curve is also a bit more aggressive. Honda basically turned every knob up just a little bit so they could make the bike faster without ruining it's character.

In my opinion, some of the best mods for a 929 are planing the head for more compression and using 954 cams and throttle bodies. My friend has this combo right now and he can now hang pretty good with the rest of the open class bikes in our group, he used to be the slowest except for a guy who rides a gixxer 750.
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post #8 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:41 AM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Originally Posted by 929RRider View Post
The question is how much do you want to spend and how much power do you want to make. I'm going to break it down in stages from what I've found with my own bike.

Stage 1: Basically you already have this: Full exhaust, gutted airbox, PC3r, and a couple of holes cut in the inner fairing for airflow to the intakes. The PC3r is a must considering how much power is available by messing with the timing.

Stage 2: Port the head and shave it .020 to get the compression up over 12.5:1. Then install a custom grind cam on the intake side and leave your exhaust cam stock. Also, don't forget to add a set of inner springs (from the exhausts on the inside of your intake springs to prevent valve float). This will get you over 160rwhp and you'll only lose a bit of response below 2100rpm. Above that you will have more power everywhere. Aftermarket cams available for our bikes are poorly designed. They usually have more duration on the exhaust than necessary with our heads intake to exhaust flow ratio of 83% at .400. Leaving the stock exhaust, or using an intake cam on the exhaust side is a better option (using the intake requires welding the cam position sensors pick-up onto it). Using the intake cam on the exhaust will put you at about 164rwhp.

Stage 3: This is what I'm up to now. Lightened and stroked stock crank to 58mm. Using 06 R1 connecting rods (2mm shorter than our rods, but you have to narrow them) and custom CP 76mm pistons for a CR of 12.7:1. I don't want to go higher because I want to retain my stock radiator and not overheat in traffic. Then add 30mm titanium intake valves, titanium retainers, APE springs, serdi valve job and more porting. Then combine it with 06 1000rr throttle bodies using the 954 stock injectors and harness. I'm going to start it with the cam setup I have now, but later I'll add wilder cams to get over 180hp.

That will put me at 1052cc with my 375lb full of fuel bike. I can't wait hit the races this winter when it's done.
Excellent stuff.
Sounds very similar to my plan for my 929.
Who did your crank and what did it cost?
You're using the dual-injector 1000RR throttle bodies but with the 954 ECU?
At 168kg with 13kg of fuel puts your bike 8kg lighter than my 929!
You must be running mag or carbon wheels?

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #9 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:43 AM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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spend 300 dollars on a nitrous kit, enjoy.
For a few seconds...

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

honda3x23 I've never lost to a nitrous only bike. Nitrous is a great way to destroy your engine, specially $300 dry kits that don't include timing retard modules, window switches, or lean cutoff switches. Even with all the right stuff, with the right tune, and someone who watches his temperature guage. There are still a few things that can and do go wrong all the time. I have a close friend that is on his 3rd engine (1000rr), this last time his nitrous solenoid got stuck open. Took the ring landing off two pistons.
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post #11 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:51 AM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Originally Posted by 929RRider View Post
By the way Bladeracer, the bore increase by itself usually doesn't add more horsepower, just more torque. That is, unless the power was still climbing into the rev limiter; then the extra displacement would allow you to use more of the available airflow before you hit the limiter. The 954s increase in power came from more than just it's throttle bodies and bore increase. The cams also have 3 degrees more duration and .1mm more lift. Then add the 0.8% increase in power that came just from the compression increase from 11.3 to 11.5. Oh, and the timing curve is also a bit more aggressive. Honda basically turned every knob up just a little bit so they could make the bike faster without ruining it's character.

In my opinion, some of the best mods for a 929 are planing the head for more compression and using 954 cams and throttle bodies. My friend has this combo right now and he can now hang pretty good with the rest of the open class bikes in our group, he used to be the slowest except for a guy who rides a gixxer 750.
Yes, I guess I should have included all the improvements in the 954 to explain the hp. I was merely indicating that it didn't gain its extra 10hp just because it's 1mm bigger than the 929 :-)
I have 954 throttle bodies already and I love the difference they make. That's why I'd like to try the 1000RR bodies as well.
I have a set of 954 cams but haven't tried them in the 929 but I will if I can get back on the track this season, along with the 954 ECU and harness.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #12 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:53 AM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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honda3x23 I've never lost to a nitrous only bike.
Surely you're not doing all this engine work just for drag racing?
That'd be a waste. Why aren't you circuit racing it?

But I agree, nitrous is crap for anything but drag racing.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #13 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 1:55 AM
 
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Excellent stuff.
Sounds very similar to my plan for my 929.
Who did your crank and what did it cost?
You're using the dual-injector 1000RR throttle bodies but with the 954 ECU?
At 168kg with 13kg of fuel puts your bike 8kg lighter than my 929!
You must be running mag or carbon wheels?
Falicon did my crank. I'm using the 1000rr throttle bodies with only one injector. I have a custom airbox that breaths from above the radiator so I can't mount the extra injector, nor do I see a need for it yet. My bike has great throttle response without it. As far as the weight, I have an RC51 front wheel with a Marvic penta 2 on the rear that I got on ebay for $300. The best weight saving mods were the Durbahn battery, my custom exhaust can, helibars, and the fiberglass tank.
I'm still debating on weather to use the stock r1 rods or get some good ones, but they are expensive. The only other thing I need for my new motor is to finish the head with the 30mm gixxer valves.
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Surely you're not doing all this engine work just for drag racing?
That'd be a waste. Why aren't you circuit racing it?

But I agree, nitrous is crap for anything but drag racing.
I hate to say this, but I mainly race on the street on long roads that people never drive on. That being said, I do circuit race it; but I don't push it on the track anymore. I used to race 125 and 250cc 2 strokes when I was younger and realized three things. Number one, if you're not falling your not pushing hard enough. Two, falling is expensive and ruins your bike. Three, falling hurts. I'm 29 years old and I have only one good joint on my body, everthing else hurts. I suffered a serious high side when I was 15 where I broke both my shoulders and messed up my hip. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I look back and I just think all those years I spent road racing were just not worth it.
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post #15 of 61 Old 06-29-2009, 2:08 AM
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Re: max effort 954 engine for the street?

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Originally Posted by Blorton View Post
The reason I said big bore/stroke would be out is because of the cylinder coating and because frankly there's not a lot of bore room left on these cases anyways.

I like the idea of a possible stroker kit with some increase in compression. It would be interesting to see what could be done there. Dropping redline would be no big deal for me.

This bike has the full sato exhaust and custom pc3 map. One of the big goals for me out of the engine rework would be to smoothen out the engine vibes.

I would like to do cams and head work on this bike, but the one plot I saw where someone had installed cams showed a lot of lost power below 9k where it then picked up and posted higher numbers. For street riding, that shouldn't be a necessary compromise at all. Perhaps a touch of cam timing change there would've helped.

The turbo option does sound interesting. I'd hate to lose the sato, and add even more weight in the process, but that could be an interesting project to try with the stock headpipes.

Thanks again,
Dan
The cylinder coating isn't a deal breaker but the bore spacing restricts how far you can go. 76mm is the maximum bore unless you were to machine iron liners and slot them into the block which might let you go to 77mm but I'd expect the engine to be very close to the limit.

I've never noticed any engine vibes so I don't know what you're trying to address there. Have you ridden other 954's and found the same thing?

Almost all engine mods take midrange power (sportsbikes generally don't have any bottom end - lower third of the tach) and push it to the topend for greater peak power. If you want to improve midrange as well as gain power I think boring or stroking are the only practical options.

The turbo doesn't add that much weight, especially when weighed against the huge power increase with no compromise to the bike's normal ridablity. Perhaps 6-8kg depending on what turbo you use. The OEM 929/954 headers are titanium so you'd need to be able to weld ti if you want to make the manifold from the stock headers. I think it's just easier to make the manifold from scratch out of steel.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder

Last edited by bladeracer; 06-29-2009 at 2:08 PM.
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