Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads? - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
 
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Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

Still need to get my brakes sorted out!

Knackered from a track-day session this morning, I've got pain in my right wrist from pulling the lever so hard to stop the bike during the last quarter of a session....this is what I ran this morning:
  • OEM 929 Master Cylinder
  • OEM discs
  • HEL braided brake lines
  • Brembo SC pads
  • Motul RBF600 fluid

For each session, everything is just fine to begin with but the last 4 laps or so are murder not to mention scary because I have to pull back so hard on lever to get any decent braking. Its not a case of the lever going very spongy, I just think that the pads are being pushed WAY beyond their operating temperature.

The track I usually take my bike to is very heavy (from 6/5th down to 2nd several times) on braking at certain points and its very "start/stop" in nature.

Estoril Track layout, runs clockwise: Circuito do Estoril - Content

Lap round the Estoril track on a MotoGP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0JGwkSOVtA


I know most people seem to run fast "track day" pads but I've tried the following all with the same results:
  • OEM Honda
  • EBC HH
  • Brembo SC

Has anyone got experience of running carbon race only pads?
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post #2 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 11:31 AM
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

I just upgraded to SS lines and EBC HH pads and they grip viciously well without any fade....

I know but thats my input!
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post #3 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 11:34 AM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

I ran carbon pads once when I couldn't get some HH's and found no difference other than the price.
Never used them again and I can't recall if that would've been on the 929 or GSXR.

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post #4 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 11:47 AM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

Try using Cabone Loraine race pads or HRC pads. The Carbone Loraine pads will stop you fast with very little wear, but you need to build heat into them to get maximum braking. The HRC pads will do the same, but they wear out quickly.

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post #5 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

The Carbone Lorraine C43 pads if I'm not mistaken are carbon pads, like the Ferodo CP211 I was looking at: http://www.ferodoracing.com/it/motorcycle/CP911.htm

I'm weary about going for HRC pads or lots of other "HH rated" pads on the market as I've been through different sets including the expensive Brembo ones I've got on at the moment and they just get too hot with the heavy braking on the track, way beyond what they're probably designed for.

BurtonF166: It all works well on the road but you never brake as hard, for as long and as often as on the track!
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post #6 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:17 PM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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Originally Posted by TheJackal View Post
The Carbone Lorraine C43 pads if I'm not mistaken are carbon pads, like the Ferodo CP211 I was looking at: http://www.ferodoracing.com/it/motorcycle/CP911.htm

I'm wary about going for HRC pads or lots of other "HH rated" pads on the market as I've been through different sets including the expensive Brembo ones I've got on at the moment and they just get too hot with the heavy braking on the track, way beyond what they're probably designed for.

BurtonF166: It all works well on the road but you never brake as hard, for as long and as often as on the track!
Yep, CL's are the ones I tried.
I've never had any trouble at all with HH's in race conditions or long track day sessions.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #7 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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Yep, CL's are the ones I tried.
I've never had any trouble at all with HH's in race conditions or long track day sessions.
That's so weird... After 20min into a session mine just feel like they've faded, I can feel that the front is braking with the lever travel but I really have to squeeze hard to get them to work.

After a 30min break, they're back to "normal" but then 20min later into a session....the same.

If you don't mind me asking, how much do you weigh? I'm at 86KG plus gear which means there's more kinetic energy to slow down...
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post #8 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:31 PM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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That's so weird... After 20min into a session mine just feel like they've faded, I can feel that the front is braking with the lever travel but I really have to squeeze hard to get them to work.

After a 30min break, they're back to "normal" but then 20min later into a session....the same.

If you don't mind me asking, how much do you weigh? I'm at 86KG plus gear which means there's more kinetic energy to slow down...
105kg naked but my 929 weighs just 163kg :-)
If your pads or your discs are worn they will be less effective at soaking heat out of the fluid, and old fluid breaks down at lower temps. If you boil the fluid just _once_ it's ruined (it will boil again at much lower temps) so don't bother trying to keep riding without flushing fresh fluid through.

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post #9 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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105kg naked but my 929 weighs just 163kg :-)
If your pads or your discs are worn they will be less effective at soaking heat out of the fluid and old fluid breaks down at lower temps. If you boil the fluid just _once_ it's ruined (it will boil again at much lower temps) so don't bother trying to keep riding without flushing fresh fluid through.
Ok, so my weight isn't the problem then!

I flushed out the fluid yesterday afternoon and replaced it with again RBF 600. I admit that the bottle of RBF wasn't "new", I'd used it for my previous track day but when it was brand spanking new, the brakes still went the same way. Unless it "boiled" 20min into my first session then so far I'm ruling out the fluid as being the source of the problem. Only way to know for sure is to buy the premium Castrol SRF fluid which is more expensive than a bottle of Bowmore 15yr Old Mariner whiskey!

The OEM discs have been on for about 28,000KM but they're not showing any signs of wear or thinner than the OEM specs. I've considered a set of wavy SS or iron discs but they're just way too expensive for a shot in the dark, it might not make it any better.

As you've probably guessed by the amount of "brake" related threads I've started, this has dogged me from day one!
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post #10 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 12:49 PM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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Ok, so my weight isn't the problem then!

I flushed out the fluid yesterday afternoon and replaced it with again RBF 600. I admit that the bottle of RBF wasn't "new", I'd used it for my previous track day but when it was brand spanking new, the brakes still went the same way. Unless it "boiled" 20min into my first session then so far I'm ruling out the fluid as being the source of the problem. Only way to know for sure is to buy the premium Castrol SRF fluid which is more expensive than a bottle of Bowmore 15yr Old Mariner whiskey!

The OEM discs have been on for about 28,000KM but they're not showing any signs of wear or thinner than the OEM specs. I've considered a set of wavy SS or iron discs but they're just way too expensive for a shot in the dark, it might not make it any better.

As you've probably guessed by the amount of "brake" related threads I've started, this has dogged me from day one!
Check for excessive brake drag as that will overheat the fluid even when you aren't using the brakes.
How long previous had the bottle been opened? It's not worth keeping opened containers, that's why they make them so small.
As for cost, I would happily pour the whiskey out but I'd never waste good brake fluid :-)

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #11 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 2:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

Been down to the garage to pump up the tyre pressure and put the road mirrors back on (still not living as a full track bike) and I noticed really excessive brake drag, took the pads off and here's what I found:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8823/dscn0503.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9990/dscn0504d.jpg

These are Brembo SC brake pads which have lasted TWO track days and no more than 3 tanks of fuel of road riding between them!

I've checked the discs for any scoring or excessive wear caused by the worn pads but to the naked eye I can't see any damage at all. Double checked the discs for trueness and they seem to be ok. Also used a set of vernier calipers to check the thickness and they're only about 0.1mm from OEM thickness.

Picking up on my initial problem, I'm not convinced the state of the pads has been the culprit all along as they were NEW last track day and they still went after a good 20min.

Although the brakes do drag ever so slightly when pushing the bike, they do so no more than the Aprilia RS125 I had before, so I guess its normal...right?

Last edited by TheJackal; 09-13-2009 at 2:27 PM. Reason: More info!
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post #12 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 2:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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How long previous had the bottle been opened?It's not worth keeping opened containers, that's why they make them so small.
As for cost, I would happily pour the whiskey out but I'd never waste good brake fluid :-)
Over a month at least although it was new and sealed when I bought it and still the same problem.

Although they're small, they're not small enough! The container of Motul RBF 600 I get is 250ml if I'm not mistaken. Both calipers, brake lines, master cylinder and reservoir don't take even half that amount...
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post #13 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 2:31 PM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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Been down to the garage to pump up the tyre pressure and put the road mirrors back on (still not living as a full track bike) and I noticed really excessive brake drag, took the pads off and here's what I found:

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8823/dscn0503.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9990/dscn0504d.jpg

These are Brembo SC brake pads which have lasted TWO track days and no more than 3 tanks of fuel of road riding between them!

I've checked the discs for any scoring or excessive wear caused by the worn pads but to the naked eye I can't see any damage at all. Double checked the discs for trueness and they seem to be ok. Also used a set of vernier calipers to check the thickness and they're only about 0.1mm from OEM thickness.

Picking up on my initial problem, I'm not convinced the state of the pads has been the culprit all along as they were NEW last track day and they still went after a good 20min.

Although the brakes do drag ever so slightly when pushing the bike, they do so no more than the Aprilia RS125 I had before, so I guess its normal...right?
It depends on how many kilometers you did in two track days but it's certainly possible to chew out a set of pads and tyres in just a few hundred kilometers.
You said you noticed "really excessive brake drag" and also that they "drag ever so slightly". On the 125 brake drag probably won't be the same problem it is on the heavier bike.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #14 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 2:32 PM
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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Over a month at least although it was new and sealed when I bought it and still the same problem.

Although they're small, they're not small enough! The container of Motul RBF 600 I get is 250ml if I'm not mistaken. Both calipers, brake lines, master cylinder and reservoir don't take even half that amount...
If it was opened to the atmosphere for much more than the time it takes to top up the reservoir then it's not worth keeping.
The entire front brake system probably only contains 40-50mls of fluid.

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post #15 of 19 Old 09-13-2009, 4:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Braking setup for heavy conditions, carbon pads?

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If it was opened to the atmosphere for much more than the time it takes to top up the reservoir then it's not worth keeping.
The entire front brake system probably only contains 40-50mls of fluid.
My point exactly, I've checked and the containers have 500ml....that's 450ml wasted after filling up!

I remember back in the day that Motul used to sell "squirt" type containers with about 100ml although I've never seen them again.
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