900RR rattle - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 8:06 AM Thread Starter
 
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900RR rattle

Iīve got this rattle from the drivetrain somewhere on the bike and i canīt for the life of my localize it.

Iīve had the "outers" of the engine and box apart to check the obvious things. Clutch,stator,the lid over the end of the crank etc etc.

What i CAN tell you is that it is the sound of like a chain that bottoms out/grinds/slaps vs metal. Kind of,and itīs only there at light load.

Coasting along,at any sane speeds,the bike sounds as it should. When i apply a little throttle tho...it rattles alright.
Bike puts the power it is supposed to to the ground as far as iīm concerned. It runs well. Thatīs not the issue.

Have checked the timingchain and guides as well as tensioner and canīt really find anything at fault there either. No broken pieces of guide plastic. The upper chainguide is there and in working order et al.
The timing chain per se looks fine to me and with the tensioner at work i canīt really say that it seems lose in any way either. The timing chain being of silent link type...yeah well.

No...it is not a bearing slap or piston pin slap. It is a rattle as per above. IOW,no thumping sound. Just a rattle-like a chain vs metal.

Drive chain and sprockets are fresh as of yesterday.

Sound is there regardless of gear. You can however NOT provoke when it neutral just blipping the throttle. Nor at steady state throttle.
It doesnīt transmit through the bike but is a sound only really. No imbalance or anything of the sorts.

As such my thinking goes towards the timingchain after all....and the tensioner indeed is more or less at full travel from what i can judge but i have a hard time understanding where said chain could bottom out?
Could it be that the timingchain transmits that sound through the tensioner?

Valve clearances and what have you not are all in order. Sound is metallic. Just had the valve cover off the other day and while at it checked camshaft phasing too-which was on par. Dead par even,which makes me wonder...cause as such that would render the chain being in order in my book?(Ie-not stretched to death)

Any ideas?

Last edited by Racing; 07-15-2011 at 8:12 AM.
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post #2 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:16 AM
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Re: 900RR rattle

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
Iīve got this rattle from the drivetrain somewhere on the bike and i canīt for the life of my localize it.

Iīve had the "outers" of the engine and box apart to check the obvious things. Clutch,stator,the lid over the end of the crank etc etc.

What i CAN tell you is that it is the sound of like a chain that bottoms out/grinds/slaps vs metal. Kind of,and itīs only there at light load.

Coasting along,at any sane speeds,the bike sounds as it should. When i apply a little throttle tho...it rattles alright.
Bike puts the power it is supposed to to the ground as far as iīm concerned. It runs well. Thatīs not the issue.

Have checked the timingchain and guides as well as tensioner and canīt really find anything at fault there either. No broken pieces of guide plastic. The upper chainguide is there and in working order et al.
The timing chain per se looks fine to me and with the tensioner at work i canīt really say that it seems lose in any way either. The timing chain being of silent link type...yeah well.

No...it is not a bearing slap or piston pin slap. It is a rattle as per above. IOW,no thumping sound. Just a rattle-like a chain vs metal.

Drive chain and sprockets are fresh as of yesterday.

Sound is there regardless of gear. You can however NOT provoke when it neutral just blipping the throttle. Nor at steady state throttle.
It doesnīt transmit through the bike but is a sound only really. No imbalance or anything of the sorts.

As such my thinking goes towards the timingchain after all....and the tensioner indeed is more or less at full travel from what i can judge but i have a hard time understanding where said chain could bottom out?
Could it be that the timingchain transmits that sound through the tensioner?

Valve clearances and what have you not are all in order. Sound is metallic. Just had the valve cover off the other day and while at it checked camshaft phasing too-which was on par. Dead par even,which makes me wonder...cause as such that would render the chain being in order in my book?(Ie-not stretched to death)

Any ideas?

Does it stop when you pull the clutch lever in?

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #3 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:25 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

Yes,but the point to have in mind is the circumstances.
Ie;yes. The sounds stops but then on the other hand i canīt very well put the engine under light acceleration/load with the clutch depressed/engaged.

Itīs gotten to the point where i actualy feel frustrated. Just for the sake of argument...i AM an old wardog as far as this goes. No BS. In short,i should be able to get this without even breaking a sweat,and i presume that to a large extent is what bugs me.

Iīve had more bike engines apart over the yrs than i care to remember.
(Albeit being an old pro formula mech)Tuned tons of ém...ported them aso aso.
This tho.?

Lemme put it this way. It sure sounds like a timingchain bottoming out somewhere but how can a timingchain under that amount of tension get to do that? Iīm just at a loss...

Again. If it was a bearing or pistonpin sound...the engine would have gone kaboom by now. Iīve ridden it like 500km or so since i got the bike just recently and those 500km hasnīt been the most mellow the bikeīs seen. I can attest to that much.
Likewise..
In spare time i tend to take it into the shop of mine to alter or adjust basicaly anything servicable and for every tour within the shop the bike just runs nicer and more mellow as well as picks up grunt.
This sound tho...i donīt get it.

Pretty thin...but COULD it be a bearing sound from one of the ballbearings for the box?

Itīs getting to the point where iīm giving thought to ripping the engine out of there and pickin it apart just to understand this,which OF COURSE shouldnīt be needed.
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post #4 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:34 AM
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Re: 900RR rattle

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
Yes,but the point to have in mind is the circumstances.
Ie;yes. The sounds stops but then on the other hand i canīt very well put the engine under light acceleration/load with the clutch depressed/engaged.

Itīs gotten to the point where i actualy feel frustrated. Just for the sake of argument...i AM an old wardog as far as this goes. No BS. In short,i should be able to get this without even breaking a sweat,and i presume that to a large extent is what bugs me.

Iīve had more bike engines apart over the yrs than i care to remember.
(Albeit being an old pro formula mech)Tuned tons of ém...ported them aso aso.
This tho.?

Lemme put it this way. It sure sounds like a timingchain bottoming out somewhere but how can a timingchain under that amount of tension get to do that? Iīm just at a loss...

Again. If it was a bearing or pistonpin sound...the engine would have gone kaboom by now. Iīve ridden it like 500km or so since i got the bike just recently and those 500km hasnīt been the most mellow the bikeīs seen. I can attest to that much.
Likewise..
In spare time i tend to take it into the shop of mine to alter or adjust basicaly anything servicable and for every tour within the shop the bike just runs nicer and more mellow as well as picks up grunt.
This sound tho...i donīt get it.

Pretty thin...but COULD it be a bearing sound from one of the ballbearings for the box?

Itīs getting to the point where iīm giving thought to ripping the engine out of there and pickin it apart just to understand this,which OF COURSE shouldnīt be needed.

If it stops when you load up the clutch springs then it's probably the damper springs in the back of the primary gear and perfectly normal.
If you're convinced it's a chain then check the oil pump chain as they do run very loose even when new.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #5 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:35 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

To ad to the confusion,not that i believe it to have any bearing on the above...
When i took the valvecover off i also checked torq for the camshaft bearing caps. All in order,but somewhere down the line some Schwarzenegger had obviously overtightened the exhaust side cap bolt for the upper guide/cap.
Instead of doing it right,Ie;heli-coil,theyīve drilled the cap out as well as the windings in the head and have redone the entire thing to M8. Doesnīt seem to interfere with anything...just a massive overkill that i have in mind to correct as season comes to an end in late oct.
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post #6 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:36 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

DAYUM!!! Didnīt even give the oilpump chain the time of day!!
Thanx. Will look into that asap.
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post #7 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:37 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

Speaking of which. By damper spring youīre thinking of the seat ring and spring at the back of the clutchpack? Cause iīve had all that apart and it all looks ok to me at least.
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post #8 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 9:43 AM
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Re: 900RR rattle

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
Speaking of which. By damper spring youīre thinking of the seat ring and spring at the back of the clutchpack? Cause iīve had all that apart and it all looks ok to me at least.

No.
When you remove the clutch basket to check the chain you will see the coil springs in the back of the primary drive gear.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #9 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

Ah. Awreight....then weīre on the same page.. Thanx. Iīll look into it come tomorrow with a little luck
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post #10 of 25 Old 07-15-2011, 12:30 PM
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Re: 900RR rattle

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
Coasting along,at any sane speeds,the bike sounds as it should. When i apply a little throttle tho...it rattles alright.


I just noticed this bit.
You are trying to accelerate from above at least 3000rpm?
If you're trying to accelerate below that point you'll likely hear detonation, especially in the higher gears.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #11 of 25 Old 07-16-2011, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

BR.
No offense,but like stated i am an old wardog around engines and know perfectly well what detonations sounds like.(I do build race engines for a living)
This isnīt it.

If push comes to shove iīll simply rip the engine out of there TBH. Iīm just completely stomped by this...which is why itīs frustrating. I should be able to get this...which i donīt so far.
Reasoning with rippin the engine out of there is simply cause its like a ton easier to work with it sitting on the bench and TBH it isnīt the end of the world.
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post #12 of 25 Old 07-17-2011, 2:12 AM
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Re: 900RR rattle

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
BR.
No offense,but like stated i am an old wardog around engines and know perfectly well what detonations sounds like.(I do build race engines for a living)
This isnīt it.

If push comes to shove iīll simply rip the engine out of there TBH. Iīm just completely stomped by this...which is why itīs frustrating. I should be able to get this...which i donīt so far.
Reasoning with rippin the engine out of there is simply cause its like a ton easier to work with it sitting on the bench and TBH it isnīt the end of the world.

Yes, I know you mentioned your background but you don't seem very familiar with bike engines. Bike engines put out a _lot_ of horsepower for their small engine capacity so the tuning is very different to car engines. Car engines have to be able to pull a lot of weight at low rpm so they have to be tuned to cope without detonation. Bike engines don't have to pull much weight at all so they're tuned very close to detonation and any extra load will cause detonation very easily.
I've built over 100 engines myself, mostly bike engines but I've done quite a few cars as well. The smallest I've built would have to be the PW80 and the biggest I can recall is the 4.9 Ford V8.
To clarify and answer my question, you are talking about higher rpm in the lower gears?

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder

Last edited by bladeracer; 07-17-2011 at 2:38 AM.
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-17-2011, 6:49 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

I appreciate what youīre saying but i think youīre getting me wrong.
Itīs been bike as well as cars,and when cars mainly single seaters.
Like...



Back ontopic.
No.
It rattles in all gears from approx 3grand up to like 6 or thereabouts.
This under light acceleration only.
If i go WOT or similar it isnīt there. If i just coast along it isnīt there.
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-18-2011, 1:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

Brought my old engine stetoscope out. Listened in to the engine both at idle and while running.(It is an electronic "ear"). Without a doubt the large portion of the rattle comes from the right side/timing chain side of the engine...so iīll hopefully install a fresh one come tomorrow night.
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-19-2011, 4:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: 900RR rattle

Update.
Picked up a 919 localy that had been put into orbit. Flywheel had come lose and that in turned made the crank go awol on the left side pulling a conrod and piston with it in the process. Block is of course blown...and crank asf...
So that all went into the bin but before bolting it all apart i checked how the timingchain and guides are SUPPOSED to look and work on a 8000 US mile engine...and burst into laughter.
It is to the point where iīll bring the bike of mine to the shop come tomorrow and pull a low n dirty...just swappin guides,sprockets,chain,tensioner asf for more "fresh" pts in an effort to find out if that is the culprit-which i suspect.
At a 70 USD total it canīt be wrong anyways...
(Cut a deal on another low mileage 919 eastbound of here that iīll pickup come sunday. Totaly complete down to carbs,airbox,exhaust aso and includes extra clutch,cylinder,cylinderhead,pistons aso aso...this time to the tune of approx 300 USD)

Will report back..
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