CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929 - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
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post #1 of 31 Old 07-29-2011, 3:59 AM Thread Starter
 
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CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

Hi All

As the title, who has done it? I saw the CBR954 injector has 12 holes, but CBR929 has only 4 holes...

I think it would be better if swap the 954 injection system to CBR929!

Anyone knows!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #2 of 31 Old 07-29-2011, 9:52 AM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by Hung View Post
Hi All

As the title, who has done it? I saw the CBR954 injector has 12 holes, but CBR929 has only 4 holes...

I think it would be better if swap the 954 injection system to CBR929!

Anyone knows!!!!!!!!!!!

I ran 954 throttle bodies and injectors on my 929 with no problems at all.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #3 of 31 Old 07-29-2011, 1:48 PM
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

Let´s get tech.

First of all the amount of openings in an injector is second to what the injector spray looks like and how the engine will handle the emulsion of what the injectors deliver.
Ergo,there is no such thing as stating that a 12 hole injector will work better than a 4 hole.

I at the time assisted close friend Jörgen Karlsson in developing this;
http://www.vems.hu/
and altho i wont tout the advantages of e programable EFI i in short state that it has its merits as it can be individualy tailored to a specific engine or driver.

To expect guaranteed improvements from using a different EFI for a given bike...is being carless. It simply doesn´t work that way.
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post #4 of 31 Old 07-29-2011, 2:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
I ran 954 throttle bodies and injectors on my 929 with no problems at all.
Thanks man..

I will install on it..but I checked what's different...I might need fuel injection system wire...that's different..

What else do I need to take care???
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post #5 of 31 Old 07-29-2011, 11:59 PM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
Let´s get tech.

First of all the amount of openings in an injector is second to what the injector spray looks like and how the engine will handle the emulsion of what the injectors deliver.
Ergo,there is no such thing as stating that a 12 hole injector will work better than a 4 hole.

I at the time assisted close friend Jörgen Karlsson in developing this;
Vems.hu
and altho i wont tout the advantages of e programable EFI i in short state that it has its merits as it can be individualy tailored to a specific engine or driver.

To expect guaranteed improvements from using a different EFI for a given bike...is being carless. It simply doesn´t work that way.

The big advantage of the 954 throttle bodies is they're 2mm larger bore.
You can use the 929 injectors in them if you wanted to but I can't see any reason to.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #6 of 31 Old 07-30-2011, 12:04 AM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by Hung View Post
Thanks man..

I will install on it..but I checked what's different...I might need fuel injection system wire...that's different..

What else do I need to take care???

If you want to use the 954 injectors then you will need the 954 injector harness as the connectors are different.
As Racing already stated, I wouldn't bother with just swapping in the 954 injectors as I doubt there'd be any difference in performance.
The bigger 954 throttle bodies are what make the difference. They offer almost 10% more flow area.
Ideally you would remap the PC to suit but I was surprised to find it unecessary for racing. For road use I would definately remap and I would expect some losses in the midrange.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #7 of 31 Old 07-30-2011, 11:09 AM
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
If you want to use the 954 injectors then you will need the 954 injector harness as the connectors are different.
As Racing already stated, I wouldn't bother with just swapping in the 954 injectors as I doubt there'd be any difference in performance.
The bigger 954 throttle bodies are what make the difference. They offer almost 10% more flow area.
Ideally you would remap the PC to suit but I was surprised to find it unecessary for racing. For road use I would definately remap and I would expect some losses in the midrange.
Yup.
When swapping injectors there are a few other factors that need to be taken into account. Stuff like inj rampup times,battery correction factors aso are rather imperative to good injector resolution and control.

I hear ya on the 2mm larger bores and agree. Most likely the slight difference in performance can be attested to that-not the injectors per se.

Then...manufacturers change injector type or even brand for reasons way way way off to us "racing idiots". They even take factors like noise into account. Yup...the injector should "sound" right...to the customer.

I live in the town where Volvo cars are built here in Sweden. As such i amongst my friends have several that work for Volvos R&D dept. Point being....
Volvo decides to swap injector brand. Not size,not pattern...but brand. That will entail 6 R&D engineers to figure it all out,according to Volvo standards,for approx 6 months.
I bullshit you not. The aspects car and bike manufacturers take into account for something as "simple" as an injector is downright mindblowing.
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post #8 of 31 Old 07-30-2011, 11:41 AM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by Racing View Post
I hear ya on the 2mm larger bores and agree. Most likely the slight difference in performance can be attested to that-not the injectors per se.

I agree the injectors themselves have marginal effect but the difference in performance with the bigger bores is more than "slight" :-)

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #9 of 31 Old 07-30-2011, 4:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
I agree the injectors themselves have marginal effect but the difference in performance with the bigger bores is more than "slight" :-)

Hi Buddy

Can you describe how's the power delieve when CBR954 fuel injection system swaping on CBR929 ?

Do you have any dyno map when it on? How much HP increased ?

Compare to CBR954..... When the CBR954 fuel injection system on CBR929rr !

I'm doing this mod now...I may need your help to put on it..

Very appreciate
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post #10 of 31 Old 07-31-2011, 12:32 AM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by Hung View Post
Hi Buddy

Can you describe how's the power delieve when CBR954 fuel injection system swaping on CBR929 ?

Do you have any dyno map when it on? How much HP increased ?

Compare to CBR954..... When the CBR954 fuel injection system on CBR929rr !

I'm doing this mod now...I may need your help to put on it..

Very appreciate

Not really as my bike was not stock when I did the swap.
I have a full Akrapovic exhaust system and no charging or starting systems so my engine spins up quicker than stock and already has less midrange than stock. Fitting the full Akra meant I couldn't let it drop below 8000rpm through the turns or I'd lose pull off the exits. Not a big deal as I only drop under 8K if I get baulked or make a mistake in the entry, but I have to be more aware of it than I did when I was running the LeoVince half-system before that. I have never ridden a stock 929 although I have ridden one that only had an aftermarket muffler on it.
I fully expected to have to make significant changes to the then-current LeoVinci map but was surprised to find it ran just fine so I never messed with it. Bump starting it from cold was definately more difficult but I only need do that once every race day so I never tried improving it. I didn't find any further significant losses in the midrange on top of the Akra system. No, I haven't dynoed it since '04 when I put the LV half-system on.
I would _guess_ the throttle bodies on their own _might_ net 5hp at the top end of the curve.
Keep in mind that the 954 only makes 10hp more than the 929 and that comes from a whole line of changes, starting at the 1mm-bigger pistons right through to the lighter rear wheel. I would expect the throttle bodies to play the biggest role in acheiving that 10hp but I doubt they bring more than half of it. The 954 has lighter crank, rods, pistons, rotor and cams so it spins up faster. It has nearly 3% greater engine capacity, slightly higher compression (due to the bore increase), slightly hotter cams, 10%-bigger throttle bodies, a much finer injector spray, a much faster ECU, a different muffler and a lighter rear wheel.
All of those changes give around 10hp or 9% more output over the previous 929. The throttle body swap is as simple as removing the 929 units and putting the 954 ones in. Everything goes back together just the same way.
I am currently swapping early CBR1000RR 44mm throttle bodies to my 929 along with the secondary injectors in the airbox and the complete 1000RR electrics to run it all. But I haven't fired the engine up with these yet. This is a much more involved swap as the throttle bodies are much larger in outside diameter and won't fit into the 929/954 intake manifolds so I had to fabricate new manifolds. It would certainly be worth porting the intake tracts as well but I haven't done this yet as I want to see how well they work on the stock 929/954 head first.
I am also fitting the 1000RR airbox which which is much taller and the ram air feeds into the bottom of the airbox through the gap between the top of the radiator and the frame - which is not wide enough on the 929 to be able to use the stock 1000RR intake ducting.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder

Last edited by bladeracer; 07-31-2011 at 5:09 AM.
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post #11 of 31 Old 07-31-2011, 3:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by bladeracer View Post
Not really as my bike was not stock when I did the swap.
I have a full Akrapovic exhaust system and no charging or starting systems so my engine spins up quicker than stock and already has less midrange than stock. Fitting the full Akra meant I couldn't let it drop below 8000rpm through the turns or I'd lose pull off the exits. Not a big deal as I only drop under 8K if I get baulked or make a mistake in the entry, but I have to be more aware of it than I did when I was running the LeoVince half-system before that. I have never ridden a stock 929 although I have ridden one that only had an aftermarket muffler on it.
I fully expected to have to make significant changes to the then-current LeoVinci map but was surprised to find it ran just fine so I never messed with it. Bump starting it from cold was definately more difficult but I only need do that once every race day so I never tried improving it. I didn't find any further significant losses in the midrange on top of the Akra system. No, I haven't dynoed it since '04 when I put the LV half-system on.
I would _guess_ the throttle bodies on their own _might_ net 5hp at the top end of the curve.
Keep in mind that the 954 only makes 10hp more than the 929 and that comes from a whole line of changes, starting at the 1mm-bigger pistons right through to the lighter rear wheel. I would expect the throttle bodies to play the biggest role in acheiving that 10hp but I doubt they bring more than half of it. The 954 has lighter crank, rods, pistons, rotor and cams so it spins up faster. It has nearly 3% greater engine capacity, slightly higher compression (due to the bore increase), slightly hotter cams, 10%-bigger throttle bodies, a much finer injector spray, a much faster ECU, a different muffler and a lighter rear wheel.
All of those changes give around 10hp or 9% more output over the previous 929. The throttle body swap is as simple as removing the 929 units and putting the 954 ones in. Everything goes back together just the same way.
I am currently swapping early CBR1000RR 44mm throttle bodies to my 929 along with the secondary injectors in the airbox and the complete 1000RR electrics to run it all. But I haven't fired the engine up with these yet. This is a much more involved swap as the throttle bodies are much larger in outside diameter and won't fit into the 929/954 intake manifolds so I had to fabricate new manifolds. It would certainly be worth porting the intake tracts as well but I haven't done this yet as I want to see how well they work on the stock 929/954 head first.
I am also fitting the 1000RR airbox which which is much taller and the ram air feeds into the bottom of the airbox through the gap between the top of the radiator and the frame - which is not wide enough on the 929 to be able to use the stock 1000RR intake ducting.
Hi Mate

Very happy to read your experience...I'm doing it now

I have big bored kit with my CBR929rr and custom hi-cams, I asked cams factory to offer 200HP hi-cams for me to race..I will go on Dyno to re-mapping it.

Wow...... 1000RR 44mm injection system!! that's big different mod..

Thanks for info..those info are treasure for me and very appreciate..

Please keep it update if you have any more bad ass CBR coming
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post #12 of 31 Old 02-13-2012, 12:39 PM
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

Hi all.I have just got hold of a set of 954 injectors ,when fitting to 929 did you use the 954 airbox ?? Cheers.
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post #13 of 31 Old 02-13-2012, 1:03 PM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by frenchiesblade View Post
Hi all.I have just got hold of a set of 954 injectors ,when fitting to 929 did you use the 954 airbox ?? Cheers.

Do you mean you are swapping throttle bodies or just the injectors?
No, as far as I know the 954 airbox won't fit under the 929 tank - but I haven't tried it myself.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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post #14 of 31 Old 02-14-2012, 6:21 AM
 
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

Was going to swap bodies complete,So do you just modify original airbox and get 954 trumpets??
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post #15 of 31 Old 02-14-2012, 6:36 AM
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Re: CBR954 fuel injection system swap to 929

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Originally Posted by frenchiesblade View Post
Was going to swap bodies complete,So do you just modify original airbox and get 954 trumpets??


Modify the airbox in what way?
You don't need the 954 stacks.

"I won't forget that ride for a while. Maybe you're right. Living fast might be worth the final crash. Maybe that's the secret you fliers know." - Flight of the Intruder
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