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Honda FireBlade Discussion of the Honda CBR 900RR, Honda CBR 929RR, Honda CBR 954RR, and Honda CBR 1000RR Motorcycles.

Thread: 900RR rattle Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
08-09-2011 10:06 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

As i uncorked the engine by cutting the silencing pts out of the airfilter box and rejetted it from a 115 to 140 clutch started to slip again. That...is a no-go which you incidently grow tired of in a hurry.

So. As i bought me a S-load of spares there was some thinner clutch frictions in there too. These measured 2.7xmm vs the 3.0x ones in there. So..stacked the first ones up in the clutch...and added one steel and one friction. No "1st" disc and no cushion spring n seat. Thing is...it works JUST as well regardless. Whats more...this aint no chrome sled..so sc** it.

Then....cut the clutch hub in my lathe 0.9 millimeter which was all that was needed.

So..0.9 mm was taken out. Incidently the hub was warped somewhat where the first friction touches it.



So?
Well,with all in all 10 discs in there first of all the set lenght of the clutchsprings diminished somewhat rendering 1/ a slightly heavier clutch lever and 2/ a firmer "feel". More distinct if you wish and more repeatable.

More importantly though..all slippage came to a dead halt. To the letter,and as such..i came to first hand experience the mod full on for the first time and....WOW!
Now shell power wheelie in 1st and 2nd like it or not at WOT. Shell even show you the sky in 3d if you turn ugly-still no intentional wheelie "touch the clutch lever for show" kinda deal.

I let her rip what she had with a good friend riding shotgun for the sake of it on the open freeway.....and not even a glitch.
I know...i know...there are those claiming that the OEM hub and pressure plate needs all the material it can get....
On the other hand...a slippin clutch will omit heat like it was going outta style.
In short? This little trick sure worked.
08-01-2011 6:53 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Thanx.
As winter is here i plan to rip the heart out of there and giving it the full 9 yrds. Stay tuned.
07-31-2011 5:04 PM
Slapsider
Re: 900RR rattle

No idea what springs they are, but thanks for posting your repair work,its great to read
07-31-2011 4:39 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

As i got the rattle fixed i started to lean on the bike way harder. Might be those of you that recall a post of mine asking Qs on the OEM clutch.
Well.
As i started to let her rip all of a sudden i noticed the clutch slip ever so slightly.
As everything specs ok as far as steels and frictions i since previously had noticed that someone before me had tried to shim the springs.
Now...shimming of coilsprings isnt the best of idea to be honest and with the spare engine i bought there was a set of fresh,heftier,springs.

So.



Heres the stockers with the shims mentioned.



..and heres three of the 5 fresh ones laying in the clutch cover.

Seems these springs,that from what i gather use 0.6mm heavier gauge material,basicaly put an end to any and all slippage of the clutch.
However...i have no idea what these springs are?
So?
Anyone seen these before?
07-28-2011 8:49 AM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Im happy to report that operation rattle has come to an end.

Thread is worthless without pics tho.



Upon disassembly i again want to emphasize the 12mm allen "adjuster" for the lower/rear engine through bolt. This should not only be torqed upon install but also released for tension under teardown.
Apart from that tho the dismantling of the engine from the frame is very straightforward.
Point in case being that for most jobs it is a fast job to pull the engine...and a good idea to boot.



..and here is the little power lump on the workshop floor. Replaced the cylinderhead with the one in the pics above,that was a given,and then tore the rest of the engine down to check bearings,piston pins asf. Im happy to report that previous owners of this bike has changed oils on a rather tight schedule cause the engine was basicaly squeeky clean within. Bearings et al checked out just fine.



It certainly leaves a hole tho...


That said.
Engine is back together and back in place. THe mischief of rattle is gone,so in essence im a happy camper. I hope for this little stunt to at least take me through the rest of the season but ill tear the engine out of there again as winter is here.
Mainly to check various clearances for gears and what have you not.

At the same time ill replace the bearings,rings,various seals,conrod bolts aso aso aso. Not that they are beyond salvation,just that new is new.
07-25-2011 6:40 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Productive day.
Picked up the second 919 yesterday as stated. A fair roundtrip around the country of approx 450 US miles..
What i picked up was one pile of spares n motor that was basicaly covered in sawdust..

Buuuuuuuuuut..got me a hot tank,so that wasnt really the end of the world was it.
Cylinder head i played around with past weekend i got assembled today first of all and as i strongly suspect that being the issue as written previously it might very well be that replacing the head will suffice. None the less...better to many spare than to few.



So that there is one 919 that has been picked apart and sent through the hot tank and then been reassembled and ready to go if need be.



Whats more i got me yet a spare head coupled with rods,pistons and what have you not down to starters,a clutch and god knows what else.



In short ive got two of these filled to the brim with Fireblade spares...
07-23-2011 3:59 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

As stated i now suspect the rattle to be especialy the exhaust cam moving around. Just cause the former "Mr Handyman" never heard of a torqwrench

Well.
I picked up a busted 919 as ive written previously and as im one a those boys that believe in "seing is believin" i ripped that cylinderhead apart.
All i can say is....it is basicaly factory fresh almost. No measurable wear what so ever.



..and after a quick trip into the hottank of mine it even looks fairly fresh
Gonna get another turn in there as im done-before install.



I almost just had to touch the valves with lapping compound for them to come out 100%

So...id say were step by step moving up to the point of rippin the heart out of the old warhorse and have it checked up..
Head will most def be replaced at least seing how busted the M6 holes for the bolts for the caps were.
07-22-2011 5:18 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Spent the afternoon with what i at first thought to be a nice,quick,little spare time job and that was to mod a front sprocket to take on a fresh apperance.
Ie; i got a 16 point universal sprocket delivered by a friend of mine and had in mind to cut the OEM front sprocket down....and the press the universal one on to the cut down OEM centerpiece.

So.
I drilled and turned the universal piece out. Have done this numerous times before with front sprockets for other bikes with no issues what so ever. Normaly these sprockets are hardened...but normaly only like 20% or so in from the "top".
Not so with the Honda one tho. I bolted the OEM piece up into the lathe by the use of an OEM output axle. I just turned a shim to backup the sprocket making it sit firm on the axle end.
As these are normaly hardened i use a "coromant" cutter for the lathe. These are of "industrial diamond" quality and hence they can be used for even abnormaly hard materials.
Well.
Im here to tell you that an OEM Honda piece is hard beyond belief!
I had the entire 2 ton lathe stompin on the floor as the cuts were made. Bit by bit.

With everything done i pressed the fresh piece onto the old now cut down centerpiece(i cut it down to 50mm) and then fired up the TIG welder i DC mode with some Inconel 600 weldrod in hand at approx 160amps.
That part worked surprisingly well and i had beforehand turned a shim to make the centerpiece line up with the fresh sprocket on my welding table. Basicaly i only had to ad very minor amounts of weldrod.
After it all was done i pulled out the torch and heated the entire sprocket to avoid what is known has hydrogen brittleness.(You basicaly heat the entire sprocket slowly til it turns dark cherry red and leave it to aircool. That "minor"(like 600deg or so) wont affect the hardening process of the sprocket per se.

Lessoned learned is that this worked alright but it was NOT by a longshot worth the effort compared to what a factory fresh sprocket runs.
A job that i at first expected to be done in like 30min or so took me the better part of 3hrs due to the insanely tought OEM sprocket.

Goes to show you i guess.

A couple of things i noticed;
1. The OEM sprocket is hardened so tough its beyond what could be expected. Kudos to Honda!
2. When i had everything lined up in the lathe and fired the lathe up i was quite surprised to see the rather massive amount of runout-in both directions. Both static and dynamic.
Indeed with the new "higher precision" homemade front sprocket in place i have to say that the entire ride felt more....subtle. Im not talking a couple of tenths of a mm here but more along the lines of millimeters-as in plural.
The new sprocket wasnt a miracle of precision either TBH...but runout was at least along the lines of 1/10 of a mm-in contrast to the OEM piece.

Anyways.
Job done and as far as that goes im a happy camper.
07-22-2011 11:26 AM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Update again.
Come sunday im leaving for "rebro" to pick that 919 up. A roundtrip of approx 700km
Well.
That done will entail me rippin that motor and trans apart come monday and throw pts i unbolt into the hottank of mine.
Basicaly what i wanna have done is check the engine out in every way i can at a minimum of work.
That done ill place that engine under the bench. Then im gonna rip the engine out of the bike and do the same thing. If my thoughts are correct what is amiss is that the caps for the cams simply aint stable under load.
Well,ive got a really good working spare cylinder head...so ill toss that on there if that is what it turns out to be.(Gonna spend tonite lappin valves of that head asf)
Whats more the complete gearbox axles coupled with shifter drum n forks from that grenaded engine are in more or less pristine condition so im giving thought to toss that into the existing block just cause the pts are there so to say.
Then check mains as well as conrod bearings and piston pins for any clearance that shouldnt be there.
Check pistonring end gap...and...again..toss it all into the hot tank of mine to be cleaned out.

Will report back,but one thing is for certain and that is that shot windings coupled with busted bolts for the cam caps are NOT a good thing so that needs to be adressed.
07-20-2011 6:25 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Well i replaced the entire timingchain setup today inc guides,tensioner,sprockets and what have you not.
Replaced the clutch basket. Inspected the springs...fiddled around with the clutch per se. Changed the chain and sprockets for the oilpump...

..and...that wasnt it

So.
Gonna pick that 919 up come sunday...then haul the OEM engine out of my old warhorse and rip it apart to find out WTF is up. Enough is enough already.

I DID however notice something that almost sent me into orbit. Seems Mr Schwarzenegger has pulled jobs on this bike previously cause as i let go of the bolts for the cam carriers...most windings were shot. Exhaust cam especialy.
So...thought has struck me if what im hearing is a cam that simply is let to flex and move around.?
In that case...no worries as ive got a full in order surplus cylinder head just laying around since yesterday..
07-19-2011 4:35 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Update.
Picked up a 919 localy that had been put into orbit. Flywheel had come lose and that in turned made the crank go awol on the left side pulling a conrod and piston with it in the process. Block is of course blown...and crank asf...
So that all went into the bin but before bolting it all apart i checked how the timingchain and guides are SUPPOSED to look and work on a 8000 US mile engine...and burst into laughter.
It is to the point where ill bring the bike of mine to the shop come tomorrow and pull a low n dirty...just swappin guides,sprockets,chain,tensioner asf for more "fresh" pts in an effort to find out if that is the culprit-which i suspect.
At a 70 USD total it cant be wrong anyways...
(Cut a deal on another low mileage 919 eastbound of here that ill pickup come sunday. Totaly complete down to carbs,airbox,exhaust aso and includes extra clutch,cylinder,cylinderhead,pistons aso aso...this time to the tune of approx 300 USD)

Will report back..
07-18-2011 1:13 PM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

Brought my old engine stetoscope out. Listened in to the engine both at idle and while running.(It is an electronic "ear"). Without a doubt the large portion of the rattle comes from the right side/timing chain side of the engine...so ill hopefully install a fresh one come tomorrow night.
07-17-2011 6:49 AM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

I appreciate what youre saying but i think youre getting me wrong.
Its been bike as well as cars,and when cars mainly single seaters.
Like...



Back ontopic.
No.
It rattles in all gears from approx 3grand up to like 6 or thereabouts.
This under light acceleration only.
If i go WOT or similar it isnt there. If i just coast along it isnt there.
07-17-2011 2:12 AM
bladeracer
Re: 900RR rattle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racing View Post
BR.
No offense,but like stated i am an old wardog around engines and know perfectly well what detonations sounds like.(I do build race engines for a living)
This isnt it.

If push comes to shove ill simply rip the engine out of there TBH. Im just completely stomped by this...which is why its frustrating. I should be able to get this...which i dont so far.
Reasoning with rippin the engine out of there is simply cause its like a ton easier to work with it sitting on the bench and TBH it isnt the end of the world.

Yes, I know you mentioned your background but you don't seem very familiar with bike engines. Bike engines put out a _lot_ of horsepower for their small engine capacity so the tuning is very different to car engines. Car engines have to be able to pull a lot of weight at low rpm so they have to be tuned to cope without detonation. Bike engines don't have to pull much weight at all so they're tuned very close to detonation and any extra load will cause detonation very easily.
I've built over 100 engines myself, mostly bike engines but I've done quite a few cars as well. The smallest I've built would have to be the PW80 and the biggest I can recall is the 4.9 Ford V8.
To clarify and answer my question, you are talking about higher rpm in the lower gears?
07-16-2011 11:31 AM
Racing
Re: 900RR rattle

BR.
No offense,but like stated i am an old wardog around engines and know perfectly well what detonations sounds like.(I do build race engines for a living)
This isnt it.

If push comes to shove ill simply rip the engine out of there TBH. Im just completely stomped by this...which is why its frustrating. I should be able to get this...which i dont so far.
Reasoning with rippin the engine out of there is simply cause its like a ton easier to work with it sitting on the bench and TBH it isnt the end of the world.
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