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post #1 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:01 AM Thread Starter
 
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Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

I've noticed that a recurring theme of these "tiered" license threads seems to be a concern about teen deaths....

Meanwhile, every day we pick up a newspaper and read an article where a teen in our own community was killed after loosing control of a large and or powerful vehicle....

Inexperienced teen drivers die in FAR great numbers at the wheel of large powerful passenger vehicles than they do motorcycles....yet even members of the riding community are quick to villify motorcycles, and support restrictions on ownership....

So what say ye "tier" proponents...should passenger vehicles have tiered licensing based on time at the wheel, GVW, HP etc....

Sith Apprentice
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"There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one..." - Joey Dunlop
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post #2 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:04 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

.


Dano

Dan
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post #3 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:05 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baketech
I've noticed that a recurring theme of these "tiered" license threads seems to be a concern about teen deaths....

Meanwhile, every day we pick up a newspaper and read an article where a teen in our own community was killed after loosing control of a large and or powerful vehicle....

Inexperienced teen drivers die in FAR great numbers at the wheel of large powerful passenger vehicles than they do motorcycles....yet even members of the riding community are quick to villify motorcycles, and support restrictions on ownership....

So what say ye "tier" proponents...should passenger vehicles have tiered licensing based on time at the wheel, GVW, HP etc....
I support this issue, but only if they are avid fishermen because this sport seems to cloud the judgement of people with thoughts of blessed solitude, beautiful sunrises and sunsets with loons calling, the ONE that got away, etc.

I think for the most part, everyone else can do OK and hold their own.


























Bikes and Golf, the rest is just details.
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post #4 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:06 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

So do you support it or not...

Sith Apprentice
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post #5 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:43 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baketech
So do you support it or not...
Jeez bake, I expected at least a smile!!

OK, here I see 2 minor differences:

  1. You can't compare someone (regardless of age) getting on a top of the line sport bike and getting in a 4 wheeled vehicle. That being said, an inexperienced driver of a cage will do much more public damage that the same person on a bike.
  2. I thought it was clear that the tiered system should make no reference to age?? I think it was LTL (but maybe not) who said a 16yo who grew up on two wheels is much better than a 40-something who has never ridden.

Here in Ontario, we do have a graduated licensing system, that is kind of a pseudo-tiered system. I do think that's a good thing.

Let's look at teens, in regards to a HP or size restriction, any parent who puts his teenager in some high-power domestic sports-car or tank on 4 wheels needs his freekin head checked. As for foreign sports cars, well, that's up another level of stupid.

Let's look at adults, should someone who spent all his driving years in a K-Car should not, IMHO, be able to get in anything high powered, or huge like a Hummer. He probably has no idea what he's doing with it.

So yes, I do think there's a difference and a reason for tiered systems.

Now, I know from discussions that you believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) that anyone, anywhere, should be able to buy whatever car, truck, weapon bike or bike they want without regard for experience as long as they are of legal age to obtain same.

Thoughts??

Bikes and Golf, the rest is just details.
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post #6 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 8:49 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfie TLR

Thoughts??

My thoughts....?

The bottom line is teens die by the thousands in large, powerful passenger vehicles, meanwhile deaths on bikes (while still horrible) are a statistical anomaly....

I just don't understand how one can be in favor of tiers for bikes, but not passenger vehicles....seems upside down....

The irony to me is that it usually comes out of the riding community...

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post #7 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 9:07 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baketech
My thoughts....?

The bottom line is teens die by the thousands in large, powerful passenger vehicles, meanwhile deaths on bikes (while still horrible) are a statistical anomaly....

I just don't understand how one can be in favor of tiers for bikes, but not passenger vehicles....seems upside down....

The irony to me is that it usually comes out of the riding community...
What's the percentage of teens driving cages and the percentage of teens riding bikes?? I don't think the two are even close, so how can you compare???

And if you read closer, I AM in favour of it.

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post #8 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 9:13 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

How can you be for it when you can't even show any data to support the notion that it would prevent any death or injury....

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post #9 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 9:28 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baketech
How can you be for it when you can't even show any data to support the notion that it would prevent any death or injury....
Why do you feel the need to justify everything someone believes in with oodles of data??

Look here, 10th bullet point I think.

In too many cases, data is bullshit and can be construed to suit the needs of whoever requires the info.

Obviously, you don't believe in tiered systems, and I can handle that. But, and I quote myself, here's my take on what you believe, right??

Quote:
You believe that anyone, anywhere, should be able to buy whatever car, truck, weapon bike or bike they want without regard for experience as long as they are of legal age to obtain same.

Bikes and Golf, the rest is just details.
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post #10 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 9:42 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Bah...we are never going to agree....cultural difference perhaps...

In any system, there are an inherent number of bozos that represent the worst case scenario, and a tiered system will not prevent that segment from doing their worst...

My opinion is that a tier system in the US would only increase the costs associated with riding, with little or no substantive change in the casualty rate....

As a rider, I want to see fewer impediments to bike ownership, not more...

IMHO, it's up to the states to determine the legal age for an MC license that provides some balance between the risk to society, and the freedom to exercise one's rights and privileges.
Beyond that it becomes the responsiblity of the licensee or his legal guardian as the case may be.

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post #11 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 9:55 AM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

I think it all stems down to what I think was one of the best quotes I've ever seen on this board:

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
Because, I don't believe you can legislate away stupidity with your methods. Why try?


That says it all for today's society. In spite of the fact is kind of goes against my beliefs in a tiered system, the above holds too much truth.

Now, to go one further, and to quote you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baketech
IMHO, it's up to the states to determine the legal age for an MC license that provides some balance between the risk to society, and the freedom to exercise one's rights and privileges.
Beyond that it becomes the responsiblity of the licensee or his legal guardian as the case may be.
Here is another probable reason for some of today's society's problems. the lack of what you bolded above.

Read the lyrics to the Eagles song "Get Over It". There's alot of truths there. Here's a little snippet if you aren't familiar with it:

Quote:
I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat
Get over it..........

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post #12 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Exactly why I oppose tiered licensing of MC's....

It would raise the cost of motorcycling, reduce the personal freedom of responsible riders, and have not a chance in hell of preventing the tards from being tards....

Edit:

Sith Apprentice
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"There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one..." - Joey Dunlop

Last edited by Baketech; 03-01-2005 at 10:21 AM.
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post #13 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 7:14 PM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Why, in the United States, is the argument that everything infringes against "freedom"?

Case-in-point: helmet laws.

You'd have to be a complete tard to chose to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. No doubt; many here will feel that Darwin will have a good laugh at this dimwit as he tumbles down the road.
However, having the protection to live thru an accident can create a better rider. To take away the "safety net" would make it difficult to learn from some mistakes. We're not all perfect the first time.

I think tiered licensing is a good idea. Car or bike. I think the British way is a little extreme (12hp or some nonsense?) and the current Canadian way is a little closer to reasonable (lvl1 no passenger and no HWY over 80km/h for the first 3 months -lvl2 no 400series). Cars are well done too (first year you must have an experienced driver in the passenger seat).

It just gives you a little bit of a safety-net before you're on your own. In 2 years you'll be completely free of the restrictions and may actually reflect that it was a good idea to force you to keep to these low limits. It may or may not have affected me being alive right now; either way, I'm alive right now to ride.

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post #14 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 7:23 PM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikedLemon
snip....... -lvl2 no 400series). .......snip
Where do you live?? In Ontario, 400 series highways are permitted with M2.

Bikes and Golf, the rest is just details.
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post #15 of 16 Old 03-01-2005, 7:42 PM
 
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Re: Tiered Licensing of Passenger Trucks & Cars

I dont know were to find it, but I heard that the "tiered"(graduated) system has greatly reduced the # of teen deaths in cars in Ontario...Probably on one of the ontario governments pages? all I know is that its hard to drag race with your mom in the front seat (dont ask how I know this... )

Canada post has came and gone, now they are coming again ...
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