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post #1 of 30 Old 09-29-2006, 2:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Terrorists are Winning?

I recently read a very interesting passage:

By assassinations, bank robberies, kidnappings, hijackings and so on, all calculated to attract maximum possible publicity in the media and to embarrass the government to the greatest possible extent, the guerillas sought to provoke the displacement of democratic governments by tough military regimes, or to drive existing military regimes to even stricter and more unpopular security measures. If the regime resorted to counterterror, torture, "disappearances", and death squads, all the better, for the purpose was to discredit the government and alienate it from the population.

From the book War by Gwynne Dyer, written in 1985.

As you can possibly guess from the "guerilla" term, the passage was specifically referring to stuff going on down in South America.

But considering the precipitous drop in Bush's popularity, the recent Bush-Clinton finger pointing, the passage of the Patriot Act, illegal wiretaps, Gitmo, Abu Gharib, and the unpopular responses done by people like the TSA in regards to a few idiots with bottles of acetone, or whatever...you have to wonder if we're playing right into the terrorist playbook here.




Last edited by luvtolean; 09-29-2006 at 3:02 PM.
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post #2 of 30 Old 09-29-2006, 7:17 PM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

24 hour news networks, even when working on the side of the president (FoxNews), are helping their cause.
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post #3 of 30 Old 09-29-2006, 7:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Totally. They've always irritated me, but I do believe it is part of the price we pay for the first amendment.

Unfortunately, soldiers such as you bear the largest part of this burden.



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post #4 of 30 Old 09-29-2006, 8:49 PM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

This is exactly why you put it down before it starts. Had the other gov'ts of the world acted in a timely manner we wouldn't have the FARC setting up a nation within a Nation in Columbia. Wouldn't have Alkeada setting up in Pakistan cause the pansy ass leadership won't stand up and put them down. Unreal
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post #5 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 1:30 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Thanks to the Bush administration, yes, the terrorists are winning.
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post #6 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 1:51 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaim View Post
Thanks to the Bush administration, yes, the terrorists are winning.
Would you please explain why this is so?
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post #7 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 6:56 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leelover View Post
Would you please explain why this is so?
Does he really need to? I mean isn't it obvious by now, even to the dolts out in the sticks?
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post #8 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 8:25 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deez View Post
Does he really need to? I mean isn't it obvious by now, even to the dolts out in the sticks?
Yes, sir-ree. I tell you what. We all be pretty dumb out here in dolt land. And I kinda noticed an unwritten rule on fireblades.org. And that is that you don't just shoot off your mouth without being able to explain yourself if someone asks. That's one reason some of the dolts in the sticks post here, I believe.
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post #9 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 10:08 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

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Originally Posted by deez View Post
Does he really need to? I mean isn't it obvious by now, even to the dolts out in the sticks?

The answer to this is yes, he really needs to. If you have an opinion, and state it, you should be able to explain and defend it. In fact you should be required to. Other wise you would find that people tend to make vague statements that exibit some attitude of disdain, but are never really specific about the problem, and CERTAINLY never about the solution.
I know this is hard to believe, but some people (generaly seems to be those who reside in larger metro areas for some reason) will talk down, or even make fun of the opinions of others who don't see their "logic" (they even make fun of the areas that they live in, as if this somehow has something to do with IQ), and yet they never say anything constructive.
I don't pretend to have great understanding, and am far from having all the answers. If you feel you have these things then share them with all us "dolts" and otherwise mentally challenged mental midgets out here. Don't play games, put something real out there if you are able.
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post #10 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Why Bush is at fault?

Patriot Act
FISA judges and wiretapping
NOT taking a stand against torture
His method of going to war



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post #11 of 30 Old 10-01-2006, 12:11 PM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seamus View Post
24 hour news networks, even when working on the side of the president (FoxNews), are helping their cause.
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post #12 of 30 Old 10-02-2006, 12:43 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojave954 View Post
This is exactly why you put it down before it starts. Had the other gov'ts of the world acted in a timely manner we wouldn't have the FARC setting up a nation within a Nation in Columbia. Wouldn't have Alkeada setting up in Pakistan cause the pansy ass leadership won't stand up and put them down. Unreal
Unfortunately, in this case, putting it down isn't quite that easy. There is no head to cut off, no body to dissect, and no discernable center of gravity to assinate. We're fighting an ideology that will take years, if not a decade to destroy.

Sure, Bin Laden is a great target. But his demise won't stop what's going on in the world right now. It's going to take change on multiple levels to rid the world of this. Politically, we need to be strong, and honest with ourselves. This is not a war between countries and will take some serious wrangling behind the scenes to hunt down, capture and kill the heads that rise up. Militarily, it's obvious. We need to keep doing our job free of the political crap that usually ties our hands. On the intelligence side, we need to develop an effective system that can gather, analyze and disseminate the info in a more timely manner so a coordinated, decisive action can occur.

And personally, I think this country needs to become less pussified. The intel world is shady and shady things need to happen to get the information we need. The military is going to kill people, that's what we do. We need to let the world know that for every one American killed, 1000 citizens of whatever country that harbors terrorists will die. End of story. No negotiation, no recouse, no mercy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leelover View Post
Would you please explain why this is so?
Quote:
Originally Posted by deez View Post
Does he really need to? I mean isn't it obvious by now, even to the dolts out in the sticks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean View Post
Why Bush is at fault?

Patriot Act
FISA judges and wiretapping
NOT taking a stand against torture
His method of going to war
You can blame Bush if you like but your own representatives aren't challenging him on these subjects and, as a result, you're each responsible. For every representative and senator that is reelected, you failed. Bush can't stand up there solo and make these things happen.

As far as the method of going to war, that's a responsibility of his wartime advisors and what could ostensibly be considered the largest planning failure ever to grace this nation as it entered a war. The face of war has changed, and was already changing prior to entering Iraq, and the people charged with executing the war couldn't change fast enough.

Yes, Bush stands alone atop the decision making structure, but it's not solely his fault nor do I think he's smart enough on all these matters to make these decisions alone. No one is. It's his fault as a leader, but you can't blame just him.
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post #13 of 30 Old 10-02-2006, 12:56 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seamus View Post
...

You can blame Bush if you like but your own representatives aren't challenging him on these subjects and, as a result, you're each responsible. For every representative and senator that is reelected, you failed. ....


And then there's this asshole...
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post #14 of 30 Old 10-02-2006, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

Seamus, I hear what you are saying, and yes, representatives from California were in the House and Senate at the time the Patriot Act was passed.

BUT, would this have been the same under a different CIC?

Can you imagine the political position right after 911 of "OPPOSING MY THE WAR ON TERROR!"?

Anytime Bush's actions have come under any scrutiny, the next day he's in the press talking about TERRORISTS! and NUKES! and all sorts of stuff. Anyone who opposes him doesn't care about "matters of national security". And of course, they always refuse to answer questions, again, citing national security. Also, Congressional probes and oversight of much of this stuff is not allowed, or is under gag order...under the auspices of national security. The people, and there representatives need to know what is going on if we are to make decisions.

The staff around Bush is a hand chosen group of syncophants. It is well known not towing the Bush line is a fast pass out of the cabinet.

Many of the things Bush has done I disagree with most, like the illegal wiretaps, were done within the "shadow governments" that no elected representation has control of. This was why judges were resigning. Direct meddling by White House staff.

As you said, Bush is CIC. That means ultimately he's responsible in the militaristic sense. But, he has also set a tone of fear and threats when anyone has dared oppose him, and the republican platform and actions are dictated directly from the White House.

If you wish to minimize the pres, ask yourself this, if Carter was pres, with the same members in Congress, would this have gone down as it did?

There is no doubt in my mind, it would have been dramatically different.



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post #15 of 30 Old 10-02-2006, 11:56 AM
 
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Re: Terrorists are Winning?

On a related topic, the opposition Minister of Defence, Liam Fox, at the Conservative Party conference:

“I want to begin by focusing on a different consequence of our addiction to oil and the security implications that result from it. We are all too familiar with the fact that recent years have seen substantial rises in the price of crude. What is seldom discussed is the cumulative wealth shift that this represents, how it is being spent and the foreign and security policy implications that flow from it.

Let me begin with a few numbers. In the past five years Europe alone has pumped $49bn into the economy of Iran and an astonishing $232bn into the former Soviet Union, mainly Russia for crude oil alone. This does not include the financial transfers resulting from gas or petroleum product sales. Of these two examples, at a national level, Germany has contributed $54bn to Russia while Italy handed $10.1bn to Iran. The global figures are, of course, much greater still.

In both Russia and Iran this windfall has been used to finance military buildup. In other words we in the West find ourselves in a security Catch-22. Our dependence on oil means that we cannot avoid paying whatever price is demanded of us. That in turn produces huge financial flows out of our economies into those oil producers, some of whom may be hostile to us. They in turn use this to finance a defence build up. In other words, our addiction to oil results in us funding the potential threat against us and our interests. There is, in addition, the consequence that there is little incentive for a state like Iran to reduce international tension as greater uncertainty will inflate the oil price and keep revenues high.

Our inability to wean ourselves off our oil habit may be providing us with more immediate threats to our security and wellbeing than the effects that climate change may bring.”
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