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post #1 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 6:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

While providing a service by doing work for next to nothing I would have to think the gangs (yes I know not all gangs are made of immigrants so no need to tell me), the cost of keeping them in custody and deportation outweighs their services. I'm certain there are hungry LEGAL families that would be happy to have work that would be there IF they weren't being given to someone that works under the table. I'm just brushing broad strokes here so lets not attack my research just yet. I'm simply trying to find out the thoughts of others.
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post #2 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 6:50 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

Slaves did work for next to nothing also. The same type of people that argued the necessity of slavery are now arguing for illegal aliens to be thier surfs. Greedy and evil.

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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

Saw a news report today that says some credit card company are going to start issuing credit cards to illegals. Now I think that it is really wrong to issue credit to someone that doesn't belong here!
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post #4 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 7:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

another thing, I don't know about each of you but before i traveled to a different country I would try to learn the language!!!!! Now I'm all about bettering yourself and providing for your family but to bypass the system (regardless of how imperfect it is) is horseshit. I don't get to bypass the rules just because I don't want to have to go through all of the steps nor should anyone else. Deport them once, if they come back... chop their ****in feet off. Don't put them in our jails where my hard earned tax money goes to feed them and keep them dry. We could be using that money to help fight our problems here at home like homeless, pay for cancer research anything other than feeding someone who broke our laws!
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post #5 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 8:07 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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another thing, I don't know about each of you but before i traveled to a different country I would try to learn the language!!!!! Now I'm all about bettering yourself and providing for your family but to bypass the system (regardless of how imperfect it is) is horseshit. I don't get to bypass the rules just because I don't want to have to go through all of the steps nor should anyone else. Deport them once, if they come back... chop their ****in feet off. Don't put them in our jails where my hard earned tax money goes to feed them and keep them dry. We could be using that money to help fight our problems here at home like homeless, pay for cancer research anything other than feeding someone who broke our laws!
Wow, you went from quiet inquisitor to fire and brimstone power punctuator in like 4 posts...
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post #6 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 8:29 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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Wow, you went from quiet inquisitor to fire and brimstone power punctuator in like 4 posts...
yeah, funny how that happened.
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post #7 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 8:34 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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While providing a service by doing work for next to nothing I would have to think the gangs (yes I know not all gangs are made of immigrants so no need to tell me), the cost of keeping them in custody and deportation outweighs their services. I'm certain there are hungry LEGAL families that would be happy to have work that would be there IF they weren't being given to someone that works under the table. I'm just brushing broad strokes here so lets not attack my research just yet. I'm simply trying to find out the thoughts of others.
Most "gangs" ala training day, colors, blood in blood out, are made up of US citizens, fighting over turf and pharmaceutical-commercial-rights, so the few illegal-immigrant gangs tend to be the really illegal ones, like the mexican mob...Very dangerous, but they too have citizen-sympathizers/members. I think the scary issue is that the farmers, food service establishments, maid-services, hotels, and contractors who hire illegals really can't stay profitable without that low-paid work force. The money is just not in the equation to pay minimum wage, payroll taxes, health insurance, retirement benefits, etc. that an American citizen would demand before taking the job.

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Slaves did work for next to nothing also. The same type of people that argued the necessity of slavery are now arguing for illegal aliens to be thier surfs. Greedy and evil.
sErfs...

If you think it is so evil, stop eating American produce and American beef, stop drinking California wine, and start sleeping in a car on trips...Oh, and have all your friends who buy newly-constructed homes pay the 45% over market value that using all-legal labor would cost....Sorry, I will chill out. I hate the "evil" card played by folks on this issue who will still drink orange juice and eat strawberries.

I am not sure they are arguing FOR use of illegal labor, so much as they want access to low-cost labor through a variety of possible programs. Day work programs with a more transparant border-status allowing folks to come and go, adjustments to NAFTA, and some other plans have all been suggested. Other folks want to build a wall. As I said above, Americans will not take the jobs at the rate employers can afford to pay. Somebody's got to do the work, or the rest of the country will buy products from Chile, etc.

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Saw a news report today that says some credit card company are going to start issuing credit cards to illegals. Now I think that it is really wrong to issue credit to someone that doesn't belong here!
Go back in history, and with the exception of the natives who crossed the land bridge 50,000 years ago, and the norsemen who did it over a 1000 years ago, every other major group who came to this country participated in some variety of slaughter (black slaves killed plenty of natives, too), land theft, or fraud on the native americans. We ALL don't belong here, but we are here now, so we should stop being so self righteous about it. We should offer them the cards, and we should then each buy shares in citigroup, and every other corp giving them the cards, and make money off of them.

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another thing, I don't know about each of you but before i traveled to a different country I would try to learn the language!!!!! Now I'm all about bettering yourself and providing for your family but to bypass the system (regardless of how imperfect it is) is horseshit. I don't get to bypass the rules just because I don't want to have to go through all of the steps nor should anyone else. Deport them once, if they come back... chop their ****in feet off. Don't put them in our jails where my hard earned tax money goes to feed them and keep them dry. We could be using that money to help fight our problems here at home like homeless, pay for cancer research anything other than feeding someone who broke our laws!
I agree, if you are going to settle, assimilate. But, as our country tries to be free and equal, we don't require literacy or even fluency in any particular language. I think that is a mistake too, but that doesn't mean they should leave.

If you are white and from the middle class in this country, you do get to bypass the rules. You will get credit more easily, spend less time in jail than a black or brown man for the same crime, spend a night in a private cell more often than not, get diversionary programs for simple posession charges instead of "intent to distribute" jail time...it is much easier for some than others. Of course, $ is the great color-equalizer...

95% of the people in prison are American citizens...That's who you are feeding. People lucky enough to be born here, who spit in the face of it, or just make bad decisions.

Immigrants, legal and not, have traditionally been the hardest workers in each american era, and we should applaud them for encouraging the rest of us to rediscover our work ethic.
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post #8 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 8:48 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

I am of the belief that all immigrants should have to meet the same requirements as far as citizenship, language, etc.

It has come to my attention that I really don't know what it takes to become a legal immigrant, or a citizen. I will start to rectify this, but if any of you have the knowledge please share it.

Conquer yourself rather than the world.
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post #9 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 8:50 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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I am of the belief that all immigrants should have to meet the same requirements as far as citizenship, language, etc.

It has come to my attention that I really don't know what it takes to become a legal immigrant, or a citizen. I will start to rectify this, but if any of you have the knowledge please share it.
Honoable and laudable. Of course, get born here, and no need to learn the language!
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post #10 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 9:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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Originally Posted by analogbear View Post
Most "gangs" ala training day, colors, blood in blood out, are made up of US citizens, fighting over turf and pharmaceutical-commercial-rights, so the few illegal-immigrant gangs tend to be the really illegal ones, like the mexican mob...Very dangerous, but they too have citizen-sympathizers/members. I think the scary issue is that the farmers, food service establishments, maid-services, hotels, and contractors who hire illegals really can't stay profitable without that low-paid work force. The money is just not in the equation to pay minimum wage, payroll taxes, health insurance, retirement benefits, etc. that an American citizen would demand before taking the job.



sErfs...

If you think it is so evil, stop eating American produce and American beef, stop drinking California wine, and start sleeping in a car on trips...Oh, and have all your friends who buy newly-constructed homes pay the 45% over market value that using all-legal labor would cost....Sorry, I will chill out. I hate the "evil" card played by folks on this issue who will still drink orange juice and eat strawberries.

I am not sure they are arguing FOR use of illegal labor, so much as they want access to low-cost labor through a variety of possible programs. Day work programs with a more transparant border-status allowing folks to come and go, adjustments to NAFTA, and some other plans have all been suggested. Other folks want to build a wall. As I said above, Americans will not take the jobs at the rate employers can afford to pay. Somebody's got to do the work, or the rest of the country will buy products from Chile, etc.



Go back in history, and with the exception of the natives who crossed the land bridge 50,000 years ago, and the norsemen who did it over a 1000 years ago, every other major group who came to this country participated in some variety of slaughter (black slaves killed plenty of natives, too), land theft, or fraud on the native americans. We ALL don't belong here, but we are here now, so we should stop being so self righteous about it. We should offer them the cards, and we should then each buy shares in citigroup, and every other corp giving them the cards, and make money off of them.



I agree, if you are going to settle, assimilate. But, as our country tries to be free and equal, we don't require literacy or even fluency in any particular language. I think that is a mistake too, but that doesn't mean they should leave.

If you are white and from the middle class in this country, you do get to bypass the rules. You will get credit more easily, spend less time in jail than a black or brown man for the same crime, spend a night in a private cell more often than not, get diversionary programs for simple posession charges instead of "intent to distribute" jail time...it is much easier for some than others. Of course, $ is the great color-equalizer...

95% of the people in prison are American citizens...That's who you are feeding. People lucky enough to be born here, who spit in the face of it, or just make bad decisions.

Immigrants, legal and not, have traditionally been the hardest workers in each american era, and we should applaud them for encouraging the rest of us to rediscover our work ethic.
you are right, most americans wouldn't take the job at the rate of pay being offered, however if you offered them that pay with lets say no taxes just straight under the table cash I'm certain that we would have people would would fill the spot. As far as my business can't make it without hiring cheap illegal labor well than perhaps new management is in order. Plenty of companys stay a float and have 0 illegals on the payroll. Where I live corn is the big money maker. They use to hire kids to come out and detassel the corn. No one around here does that anymore because they can get illegal immigrants to do it for next to nothing. What have they gained by doing this? Well they use to have kids or adults that didn't need much money (single guy no family to look after etc) doing it keeping them off the streets, less crime due to them being able to afford those nice shoes (or whatever), taught the younger crowd the value of a dollar and the pride gained by putting in a hard days work and helped the community by providing jobs to the locals. Now what do they have. Cheap labor, kids with nothing to do but break into places and steal what they use to be happy to pay for, hate crimes due to the people being pissed off that their jobs are being outsourced so to speak in their own damn neighborhood. But hey they are saving a few dollars here and there
Jails. We spend hundreds of millions of dollars on feeding and housing inmates. I'd be happy to regain 5% of that to put towards finding cures for diseases. As far as the other 95% well a quick way to cut costs would be to actually kill the people on death row instead of leaving them there for half of their natural life.
The race deal, I'm not upset about race. White, Black, Asian, British I don't care. If you aren't willing to go through the steps to legally get into this country then get out and take any anti american americans along with ya. If you are willing to spit on your rights and freedoms that you are given as an american than take your ass somewhere else, I'm sure no one will miss you. I understand that the white man wasn't sent an invitation and a lot of things were done wrong but that is long since done and over with. There are legal ways to get into this country and I think its fair to require that these rules be followed or else deal out a harsh punishment. No one will take these rules seriously when you get a slap on the wrist.
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post #11 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 9:18 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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sErfs...

If you think it is so evil, stop eating American produce and American beef, stop drinking California wine, and start sleeping in a car on trips...Oh, and have all your friends who buy newly-constructed homes pay the 45% over market value that using all-legal labor would cost....Sorry, I will chill out. I hate the "evil" card played by folks on this issue who will still drink orange juice and eat strawberries.
Change the welfare state OR pay the price. I stick by evil when you are more concerned about personal ease that fair treatment. What about the carpenter that had his wages eroded by the illegal aliens you find convenient? What about the brick layer? Yep it is better to be king and have your SERFS than make the system fair and equitable. In the meantime those that are not king and cannot afford maids find that crime goes up, jobs with lower skill levels go down in pay and your schools are overrun increasing the chance your children will not be better off. All so Lumburgs stock can increase 1/4 of 1%

Must obey the sheep dog
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post #12 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 9:25 PM
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

It actually costs more to kill a person through the state than to keep them alive, but I hear ya!

Being critical of the people and government of the US is NOT being unamerican.

Not every industry can start paying under the table, which, by the way is still illegal!

Exercising a right to free speech is not spitting on rights...It is in fact, exercising a right. The first right demanded by the people before they would ratify the constitution.

We don't spend nearly as much as you think, with privatization; and, we certainly spend way less than we should to re train these folks how to live in the society after prison, given the high rates of recidivism.

If the rules were fair, I would aggree. I took an immigration law class, and boy...The most contradictory statutes, policy, and implementation...

The problem is we have a system that allowed terrorists to take flying lessons, but peoiple are still pissed off at Ludmilla Cortez who came here illegally, works a 150 hr work week, and makes about $8500.00 a year...She aint the problem...
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post #13 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 9:26 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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Honoable and laudable. Of course, get born here, and no need to learn the language!
That whole get born here thing is **** too. If your parents came here illegally then thats how you are here too! I'm not even that convinced that they should get healthcare while here illegally regardless of if they can/will pay for it. Nor do I care how old the child is that floats here on a raft, when the tide turns put him back on it and give him a push
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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Change the welfare state OR pay the price. I stick by evil when you are more concerned about personal ease that fair treatment. What about the carpenter that had his wages eroded by the illegal aliens you find convenient? What about the brick layer? Yep it is better to be king and have your SERFS than make the system fair and equitable. In the meantime those that are not king and cannot afford maids find that crime goes up, jobs with lower skill levels go down in pay and your schools are overrun increasing the chance your children will not be better off. All so Lumburgs stock can increase 1/4 of 1%
So, you don't drink orange juice, eat strawberries, drink wine, etc. Look, we are all hypocrytes in our own little ways.

I agree that changes need to happen, but to vilify people trying to make a living is harsh, on both sides of the debate. I am on your side, more concerned with the exploited than the exploiters, but to fail to acknowledge that some of those employers are barely getting by also, is just not fair. I would love to discuss the socio-economic price, and the ethical dilemmas and possible social-reorganization to solve of all of this, but I think, sheep, that is for another thread.

You are on the : This is hurtful to the US.

I am in between...Both hurtful and beneficial, but regardless of where you are, there are victims, but further: it is a reality not easily dispensed with...And certainly not dispatched with mere rhetoric...We need some rational plans, not chopping feet or killing people...(not your stuff, I know)
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post #15 of 69 Old 02-13-2007, 9:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: illegal immigration - Helpful or Hurtful to America

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It actually costs more to kill a person through the state than to keep them alive, but I hear ya!

Being critical of the people and government of the US is NOT being unamerican.

Not every industry can start paying under the table, which, by the way is still illegal!

Exercising a right to free speech is not spitting on rights...It is in fact, exercising a right. The first right demanded by the people before they would ratify the constitution.
I agree with that 100% those are our rights, I'm talking about the flag burning Nazis that are here to exploit it so they can sit and collect a check from the government while the only thing they are doing is selling drugs and popping out babies.
And I know being paid under the table is illegal, I was simply saying thats how they are paying their illegal help, if they paid the legal ones in the same fashion then it would make it more worth while to a legal american. Now I don't knwo about you but I don't really have an option on working or not. I have to make money so that my family can stay in a warm house and have food to eat, that means if the only thing I can get is a shitty job that doesn't pay worth a damn, thats my job until I can move up the ladder
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