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post #1 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 8:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Right to keep and bear arms

So, today on the subway I saw a poster that said there is now a mandatory 3 and a half year prison term for posessing an illegal (read: unregistered) gun within the city limits of New York.

So, although the first part of the 2nd Amendment's "arms" clause has to do with a "well regulated militia" (taken in modern terms to be the nat'l guard), the second part, separated by a comma, is ...[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Making the registration of a gun mandatory (and make no mistake, there is littlw chance you will be allowed to bear arms in NYC...at best you will get to keep it unloaded in your house) or there is a mandatory penalty, sure seems like a variety of infringement.


Thoughts?
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post #2 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 9:27 PM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

You interpretation of the first part is correct, the remaining text, as I remember history, was to keep British soldiers from taking arms from citizens to prvent a military build up.
In today's society, registered guns are somewhat necessary. But everything has it's loopholes. In VA, I believe lawmakers call it the "seven day cooldown period" to buy a gun, but I am not required to register unless if am carrying concealed... a whole other can of beuracratic bull. Ironically, if I don't want the ATF to now I have a gun, I can go to the TradingPost and buy from a private individual. But, as aways, debates on politics and religion can't not be put in any one favor.
If you want to read, go to:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but it's probably all doctored propaganda.
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post #3 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 9:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.F.T.C.T.T.G. View Post
You interpretation of the first part is correct, the remaining text, as I remember history, was to keep British soldiers from taking arms from citizens to prvent a military build up.
In today's society, registered guns are somewhat necessary. But everything has it's loopholes. In VA, I believe lawmakers call it the "seven day cooldown period" to buy a gun, but I am not required to register unless if am carrying concealed... a whole other can of beuracratic bull. Ironically, if I don't want the ATF to now I have a gun, I can go to the TradingPost and buy from a private individual. But, as aways, debates on politics and religion can't not be put in any one favor.
If you want to read, go to:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but it's probably all doctored propaganda.
Dude, I am a lawyer, but thanks.

I understand the law about it, including how commerce clause power allows the federal gov't to require certain atf issues and how federalism allows some states to allow concealed carry, others not, and the rationally related to a government interest standard for assessing the constitutionality of these issues...

I just wanted some lay-opinion and principled debate. I see telling a person they must register "or else" as an infringement. And, the way the current NY statute is written, it ain't just handguns...Shotguns and rifles can qualify too.

Thoughts?
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post #4 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 9:42 PM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by analogbear View Post
Dude, I am a lawyer, but thanks.

Thoughts?
I figured from previous post. I just had to throw something out there to make you say it out loud. Tag, you it111

Last edited by A.F.T.C.T.T.G.; 02-24-2007 at 9:44 PM. Reason: brand new malfunctioning like the old keyboard
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post #5 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by A.F.T.C.T.T.G. View Post
I figured from previous post. I just had to throw something out there to make you say it out loud. Tag, you it111

You Dick! OK, ya got me. But really, what are your thoughts? As I describe it, do you think that is an infringement?
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post #6 of 70 Old 02-24-2007, 11:24 PM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

Yes, I also think that telling someone that they can't get a gun because of a felony is an infringement.
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post #7 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 12:17 AM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

I guess in a way, no... What if you didn't have to register your motor vehicle or maintain a valid driver's permit. There are a lot of people out there that should not have such things. But where do you draw the line. Sinfuldragon said in his post it's an infringement that felons can't own guns. Do you really want past, present, or future murders, rapists, carjackers, blah blah blah to own firearms. I don't. I was an NRA member for a long time, that still doesn't mean I wan everybody having that right to own. There's also people out there that should not be allowed to own cars, motorcycles, steak knives, or even breed. But where do we draw the line on imposing ourselves on other's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Like I said before, political and religious debates suck.... nobody wins... Just look at the Middle East.
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post #8 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 12:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by sinfuldragon View Post
Yes, I also think that telling someone that they can't get a gun because of a felony is an infringement.
I agree, if the presumption is that the punishment represents some closure to the issue, and that the felon has been rehabilitated...A ****ing pipe dream, but the assumption, nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.F.T.C.T.T.G. View Post
I guess in a way, no... What if you didn't have to register your motor vehicle or maintain a valid driver's permit. There are a lot of people out there that should not have such things. But where do you draw the line. Sinfuldragon said in his post it's an infringement that felons can't own guns. Do you really want past, present, or future murders, rapists, carjackers, blah blah blah to own firearms. I don't. I was an NRA member for a long time, that still doesn't mean I wan everybody having that right to own. There's also people out there that should not be allowed to own cars, motorcycles, steak knives, or even breed. But where do we draw the line on imposing ourselves on other's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Like I said before, political and religious debates suck.... nobody wins... Just look at the Middle East.
Well, I might require licensure to breed, own guns, and drive a car. I also have no problem with getting a "gun" permit that allows you to own and carry a gun. I don't think you should have to register each gun. You don't have to get a new operator permit for each car, and frankly, guns are more private than cars, so I see no need to register each gun with the gov't. I guess if it was a mere formality for de minimis cash, I wouldn't mind so much, but here in the city it is a pain in the ass. Also, I own an apartment in the city, and a house in connecticut...But it is a felony for me to bring a gun I purchased in CT into NYC without "registering it" here.
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post #9 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 5:34 AM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

Man, what has happened to this forum? A topic like this would have had a lot of replies by now. Did all the conservatives leave the board?
I have a problem with having to register a gun since that is the way governments in parts of the world have been able to take target gun removal from its citizens. I can understand a city or area having a registration program for guns brought into its area. The punishment for not registering a gun with NYC does seem to be a bit harsh. A fine would be more appropriate. Now if you use the unregistered gun in committing a crime then a stiff jail sentence would be appropriate.
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post #10 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 7:35 AM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by analogbear View Post

....I don't think you should have to register each gun. You don't have to get a new operator permit for each car....
You are right, but you do have to register every car/motorcycle that you buy(Equally as deadly in the wrong hands)
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post #11 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 8:36 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by A.F.T.C.T.T.G. View Post
You are right, but you do have to register every car/motorcycle that you buy(Equally as deadly in the wrong hands)
Satisically, cars are MORE deadly, t that is why I emphasized the more privae natre of guns. I wouldn't park a gun on the sreet...
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post #12 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 8:38 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by jaim View Post
Man, what has happened to this forum? A topic like this would have had a lot of replies by now. Did all the conservatives leave the board?
I have a problem with having to register a gun since that is the way governments in parts of the world have been able to take target gun removal from its citizens. I can understand a city or area having a registration program for guns brought into its area. The punishment for not registering a gun with NYC does seem to be a bit harsh. A fine would be more appropriate. Now if you use the unregistered gun in committing a crime then a stiff jail sentence would be appropriate.
No, they just don't like arguing with me because I will constantly point out inconsistencies, or shift relevance, both hampering their ability to make a feeble point...
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post #13 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 8:49 AM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by analogbear View Post
Satisically, cars are MORE deadly, t that is why I emphasized the more privae natre of guns. I wouldn't park a gun on the sreet...
By comparison, as for what purpose would you purchase your firearm; how and where would you park it.
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post #14 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by A.F.T.C.T.T.G. View Post
By comparison, as for what purpose would you purchase your firearm; how and where would you park it.
yeah, I don't know. I would like to be able to carry it, so there I might tolerate a simple "registration" of it, but if I was "parking" it in my house? Hell no. Ain't noboby's business...Plus, as a former Ranger, I should be allowed to have any non-nuke weapon-Scratch that....I should be able to, ala scandinavian countries, keep an assault rifle and pistol from my military service. If I have to give up the grenade launcher, so be it.
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post #15 of 70 Old 02-25-2007, 11:43 AM
 
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Re: Right to keep and bear arms

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Originally Posted by analogbear View Post
yeah, I don't know. I would like to be able to carry it, so there I might tolerate a simple "registration" of it, but if I was "parking" it in my house? Hell no. Ain't noboby's business...Plus, as a former Ranger, I should be allowed to have any non-nuke weapon-Scratch that....I should be able to, ala scandinavian countries, keep an assault rifle and pistol from my military service. If I have to give up the grenade launcher, so be it.
You avoided the questions, counselor... (forgive me, Law and Order is on)
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