Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article - Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org
Riding Gear / Luggage Discussion of Helmets, Boots, Gloves, Leathers, Jackets, Pants, Back Protectors, Earplugs, Tank Bags, Tail Bags, Saddlebags, etc.

User Tag List

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 9:16 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: 03-27-2004
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
 
Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

makes sense to me
Attached Files
File Type: pdf btlo_response.pdf‎ (109.8 KB, 162 views)
motojedi is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 9:35 AM
 
Join Date: 03-12-2004
Posts: 2,057
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
       
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Wow. By the tone in his letter, I would say he is a little peaved. It was a long read but a good one.
colryn is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 11:22 AM
 
EDDIE110171's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-25-2004
Location: MIAMI, FL, USA.
Age: 48
Posts: 1,848
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 17
 
Send a message via AIM to EDDIE110171
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by colryn
Wow. By the tone in his letter, I would say he is a little peaved.
I would say he had a good reason to be peaved.

"another beautiful theory beaten to death by a gang of ruthless facts..."
- Tom Hanna (Master Metalshaper/Nitrogeezer)
EDDIE110171 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 11:26 AM
 
Join Date: 08-01-2001
Posts: 14,390
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
                 
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

"...ignore the mosquitos..."

I wonder who he was referring to?



luvtolean is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 12:27 PM
 
CBR929RE's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-06-2004
Location: Randolph, MA
Age: 39
Posts: 12,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 39
                 
Send a message via AIM to CBR929RE
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
If a G exposure below this limit is safe, another exposure 40 G's lower cannot be any safer
I don't see the logic in that statement. Subjecting your head to 300 G's seems like it would do a lot more damage than 150 G's. Lower G's on my head seems like the best choice. The problem is making the helmet able to do that without making an 8 foot helmet.

I think this guy read into stuff a little too much. Motorcyclist didn't say that snell helmets aren't unsafe. But I do wonder who is right about the level of G's for each standard.

In any case I'm still very happy with my non Snell Suomy Spec 1R

if you can't convince them, confuse them.

Last edited by CBR929RE; 05-18-2005 at 12:27 PM.
CBR929RE is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: 03-27-2004
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
 
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

I believe he's saying that by his definition of safe; you can't have "more safe". Once you establish what level of G's are considered safe; a level below that isn't more safe, it's just safe.
motojedi is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 1:16 PM
 
CBR929RE's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05-06-2004
Location: Randolph, MA
Age: 39
Posts: 12,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 39
                 
Send a message via AIM to CBR929RE
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojedi
I believe he's saying that by his definition of safe; you can't have "more safe". Once you establish what level of G's are considered safe; a level below that isn't more safe, it's just safe.
yeah but lets say 300 G's is "safe" and only gives you an AIS 4 but 150 G's is also "safe" and only gives an AIS 2. It just seems to me the less G's your brain smashes into your skull with are safer.

if you can't convince them, confuse them.

Last edited by CBR929RE; 05-18-2005 at 1:16 PM.
CBR929RE is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 8:26 PM
 
Join Date: 11-17-2004
Location: unkown
Posts: 334
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 16
 
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

lower G's will ALWAYS be better on your head, period. Of course Snell will have a response like this, what would you expect. Motorcyclist mag kind of attacked them and they feel backed in a corner. Overall the USA needs to adopt a better safety system which includes helmets, jackets, back protectors, etc. I seriously doubt that will happen but it would be nice.

I'll stick with my Suomy as well...
tikki50 is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 9:27 PM
 
Join Date: 08-01-2001
Posts: 14,390
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
                 
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikki50
Overall the USA needs to adopt a better safety system which includes helmets, jackets, back protectors, etc. I seriously doubt that will happen but it would be nice.
What exactly are you talking about here?



luvtolean is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 05-18-2005, 9:39 PM
Administrator
 
Red Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-23-2001
Location: Motor City, Michigan
Age: 60
Posts: 8,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 47
                     
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtolean
What exactly are you talking about here?
Something like this?

"It is better to post and risk reposting than to have never posted at all."





Last edited by Red Rider; 04-04-2007 at 5:59 PM.
Red Rider is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 08-16-2005, 6:12 PM
 
Join Date: 07-25-2002
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
             
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Motorcyclists response to SNELL
http://motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/
RRWANTR is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 08-16-2005, 8:59 PM
 
maxib's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-20-2002
Location: MN
Age: 68
Posts: 1,892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 23
         
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRWANTR
Motorcyclists response to SNELL
http://motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/hatz/
This is a long read, but it actually requires that length for a well researched and well written scientific discussion about helmet standards. I am personally very grateful that RR posted that link, as many of my questions have been addressed in this article.

The response and counter response was eye opening as well.

I write this only to prod some people to read it for themselves and formulate their own conclusions. I know that I have!

Official Racer Dude Guy, according to a neighborhood 6 year old.
maxib is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 08-16-2005, 9:07 PM
 
Join Date: 07-25-2002
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
             
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxib
I write this only to prod some people to read it for themselves and formulate their own conclusions. I know that I have!
Care to share what you came away with?
RRWANTR is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 08-16-2005, 10:37 PM
 
maxib's Avatar
 
Join Date: 06-20-2002
Location: MN
Age: 68
Posts: 1,892
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 23
         
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Well, since you asked! A short preface though...

Longtime .orgers know what I do for a living. For the folks who don't know me or had forgotten, I'll just say I work in the medical field, and my specialty in the head and neck area has given me (both by training and experience) an insight into trauma in this area directly related to injuries that not only involve motorcyclists, but to unseatbelted cage drivers, passengers and back seat passengers, with regards to automobile or motorway accidents.

Although I have not done a double blind study, I have been in the trenches treating accident victims. Also, having completed training in the specialty of pathology (although I do not practice path, I've BTDT regarding accident autopsies) I can vouch for the statements regarding the consistency of brain matter stated in this article. In fact, I was amazed during the first weeks of my neurosurgery rotation how much brain surgery was actually done using only a suction device due to how delicate the brain tissue is.

The bottom line for me is whatever helmet shell and lining can keep the brain from from rapid deceleration and smashing around inside the cranium will probably do a great job for protection. I feel that Dr. Hurt's research and data are valid today. I also feel that consideration of only head trauma skews conclusions with regards to motorcycle crashes, as the entire body is involved, not just the head. As stated in the article, people can experience a survivable head injury only to die due to other body injuries.

In this context, I feel that anyone that has a passion for this sport understands (or should) that you 'pays the price of the ticket understanding that the ride might hurt'. In other words, there is no guarantee. If you want complete safety in a sport, take up fingerpainting with nontoxic materials, and even then it might be unsafe if you have an allergy to any of the stuff. No risky business in life you want? Stay indoors forever...ummm that won't work, your house may have asbestos insulation...

How's that for a prologue/prelude?

You asked the question, so here's my answer...
I'll be much less concerned about 'certification' from a particular certification agency with my future helmet purchases. I do think full face coverage is mandatory, but I will not eliminate the flip up full face helmet, or an European helmet just because it does not have a certain sticker. There is nothing that proves European standards are less than US, and possibly today they may very well be superior.

I cannot ignore the laws of physics, nor should anyone else, because physics works. (Space travel wouldn't be possible without following the laws of physics, right?) No matter how fast you were going when you high-sided, your head still only fell 10 feet or less at the pull of gravity before hitting the floor. That's the impact needed to be safe from. The fact that you slid 5 meters or 50 meters from the speed really doesn't matter. The physical material of the helmet should keep your face from being scraped off then. The rolling and tumbling after the ground hit safety, is more concerned with what body protection the rider has on while sliding across the tarmac, not the helmet.

An argument could be made for the situation where the fall is survivable, but the slide into a curb is bad...i.e. needing to survive two impacts, could be made...but until someone could prove statistically from actual data collected that less than 1% of secondary hits would not result in a broken neck in that scenario...I'll take my chances.

IOW, I'll buy my next helmet if it has some sort of testing certification, looks good to me, and most importantly...fits comfortably. (If it don't fit, nobody wears it) To put it differently, I no longer think that a Snell rating is the ultimate in safety. There are other choices.

Time and knowledge moves on. My next helmet may very well be a Snell rated helmet, because it could be an Arai or Shoei. (Both of which I currently have and use. Both of which are repeat helmet buys for me.)

However, it's nice to know that I can get as good protection (physically in the real world of trauma when all physical injuries are taken into account) with another brand helmet for my brain. The rest of me may not survive, but that's another issue.

The real bottom line for me is that a full face helmet with any of the recognized standards of certification is as good as it gets. So I won't be looking for a particular certification. My next helmet has to have one of them however.

Everyone of us has to make our own personal decision as to what is or isn't for the best for us. That's called life. If someone else disagrees, well so be it!

Quick answer to your question...many brands have been opened to my next helmet purchase decision.

Now, aren't you glad you asked??

Official Racer Dude Guy, according to a neighborhood 6 year old.

Last edited by maxib; 08-16-2005 at 10:43 PM.
maxib is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 08-16-2005, 11:26 PM
 
Join Date: 07-25-2002
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Reputation Power: 0
             
Re: Snell's response to Motorcyclist helmet article

Your reply was as long as the article... Thanks for your input.
RRWANTR is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org > General Motorcycling > Riding Gear / Luggage

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
A valid e-mail address is REQUIRED. You will not have access to any site features until you activate your account using the activation e-mail that is sent to this address.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Arai helmet scam fl-929 Vendor / Seller / Dealer Reviews 19 07-02-2007 2:40 PM
Motorcyclist Helmet Article Northy Riding Gear / Luggage 112 04-17-2006 1:41 PM
Helmet article in Motor Cyclist smkeatr Off-Topic 4 05-11-2005 4:20 PM
Helmet Help Oldskool Riding Gear / Luggage 45 10-05-2004 5:48 PM
Yahoo! Just recieved my x-eleven porto helmet redwhite929rr General Discussion 11 06-22-2004 1:44 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome