Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi All,

New to your forum and really need some advice please.

A little history...
Being a born again rider, used to ride back in the 90's, had a gixer11r, traded bike for wife.. last year, traded wife for bike :smilebig:.

Being effectively a noob in riding terms after a good 15 years off, bought a 6R to get the feel back. After scaring myself daily until back in the groove, felt it is time to be looking for something a little more oomphy, and, back when I quit the 'Blade' was the tool to have.

Anyway, finally plucked up the courage to buy, chap seamed honest, bought the bike, but after looking properly at it, it has a few problems, none of which are insummountable except one..

So, fork seal N/S popped, no biggie, rear tyre near limit, again no biggie.

Here is the problem...
As I was moving house, riding the machine was a 2 min 'once around the block' and due to the fork seal, took it very easy, consiquently I did not realise the biggest problem of all, vibration....

After a little investigation the vibration is aweful and engine speed, not road speed.

So, I have the manual and worked through the basics, checked and re-torqued engine mounts, checked oil for particulates, checked oil level obviously. Checked tank rubbers, so on and so on until I have concluded that it must be either generator or clutch as it is def RPM based.

So, I start the bike, engine purrs into life, oil light out quickly, idle good, solid 1000rpm, sounds well balanced, listened for CCT rattle nothing obvious. But...

Sitting on the bike stationary, 2500rpm pegs starting to zing, along with the frame, 3000 it is now in the whole bike albeit not frightening. 4000rpm it has become alarming, you can feel it in both pegs and the bars (plus ya conkers on the tank). I have rev'd to just under 5000 and the vibration gets worse and does not feel as though we have hit some kind of harmonic and passing through. Honestly it feels as though the engine will come apart if I went any higher. Anyway I decided to take the clutch out today given the size and vibration speed, it has to be something crank end.
I did also try the rev test with the clutch in and out with little difference.

I thought that I would find an end off the clutch cage or a broken or badly warped clutch disk. Nothing...

Checked clutch spring free length, 48mm. The clutch metal plates look new to me, so, I have posted some pics to get your thoughts as I do not know if what I am looking at is bad or not.

A few things I did notice though, It looks as though someone has filed the pegs in the friction plates as they have horizontal grinds. The clutch end plate bearing fell out when I removed it. The inner frictions were half wet and haft dry and if I get a hold of the clutch cage I can rotate it 4mm forward and the same backwards (once pushed).

Does this mean my cage in knackered? is this normal?
The clutch metal plates are steel and I hope the pics show thatyou can still see the lateral grinding when they were made.

So please, anyone got any thoughts as to whether I am on the right road or barking up the wrong tree.

I was so looking forward to owning a blade and at the mo, stumped and still not riden the bike in anger and I would love to ride it properly :D

Thank you in advance for all your help.

Also....some plates say FP3 and some FP4 and you can see where the cover plate has had the bearing spun in it even though the bearing is smooth and not sloppy...
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Please guys,
I really could use your expertise....I have done my due diligence and googled everything I can think off :idunno:

I feel like I have bought the wrong bike and would love to ride it.

In fact today I had to fix my 6R just to be on any bike.

Thanks in advance...
 

·
President: Team Full Chat
Joined
·
8,217 Posts
Hey Mike, :welcome: to the forum.

What model year is your 918, I may have missed it.

The clutch looks pretty status quo for the early 900RR years, as I know both my 93's have/had all sorts of grooves in both the inner and outer baskets. My bearing falls out of the pressure plate as well.

The clutch spins pretty fast, and would doubt that it would create such a noticeable vibration as you describe. What I may question is the spring loaded damper that attaches to the rear of the outer basket. It takes vibration out of the crank and basket I believe. I've seen them fail, and the springs go south. They do rattle though if you remove the outer basket, so if you remove it and shake, yeah, that's normal too.

Are there any aftermarket parts on the bike? I just rode over 200 miles today on a stock engine 1993 RRP with Attack rear sets and Vortex clip on's. No buzz even remotely close to what your describing. Those bikes definitely get zingy as the revs come up, but from what you describe "like the engine is going to come apart"........:idunno: That sounds pretty serious. But that's my guess.

If you're still thinking crank end, maybe the left side (stator) is not balanced or damaged. Aside from that, there could be rod damage or piston damage, I'm sure that would create intense vibes.....not saying you have that, but who knows.

Good first post providing pictures:thumb: Even though I don't see anything earth shattering in the clutch, they do help us in helping you. I will suggest that you use a web host like Photobucket, so we don't have to download and open up each thumbnail attachment. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Hi Ian,
Thank you for the warm welcome and the information.

'Rodger that' to the image hosting, never occured to me.

Right, Bike..
1998 'R' Plate UK model
Only upgrades (as far as I can tell) slip on exhaust, 17" front wheel upgrade adn braided hoses...I think. I wanted as close to stock as I could get given the years and the small tweaks that people feel they have to do.

After your words, I thought I would have one more go over the basketbut as you say, nothing obvious. Not had time after work tonight to actually remove it, but thank you. The damper springs on the back are next.
I know from building rally cars back in teh day that 3 paddle clutches and thier dampers can be a serious problem so will get into that tomorrow night.

Something I did notice is that my clutch basket, if looking in does not have the pentagonal internals that some show (if that makes any sence?) maybe a year thing?

So assuming the clutch is copacetic, then I will remove all the oil and pull off the flywheelcover. I hope there is exposed spleens and bones in there.

It has to be rpm related and if it is not the clutch plates, basket or springs, then flywheel/gen has to be the problem. I am in denial about it being a con rod or bearing as that would probably render me in the fetal position ini a puddle of my own drool as that will mean a fullstrip out.

I did manage to prove that the clutch metal plates are Honda OEM plates and not some chinese make. Frictions.....cant tell.

On the bearing front, If there was a wrung bearing would there not be a oil pressure issue or 3k thrack sound when the load is taken off on throttlw roll off???

Basically the bloke who sold me the bike lied on all fronts and im pretty pissed about it. He knew about all this. Criminal really, if I had wanted a 'Fixer upper' I would have bought one, I bought this on the terms it was in good nick and working order AND full price.

Anyway I digress (apologies)

Back to the zingy thing, quite used to that from the 6R, but this is another world by compare. I swear thatwhen I got over 5000 rpm, the vibration was so bad it started missfiring.(or the missfiring casued the vibration...eithe rway)

On a positive note, it was sooooooooooo good to have a snort on the 6R, even if I did get very wet.

Fromyour comments about a stock 93, being good,I Wish I had that, I am not a youngen with huge conkers and little fear. I want a fast street bike but I ride with absolute care, I do not abuse the machine,but do expect it to do the most basicof things and run smoothly up to the rpm limit.(not that I ride anywhere near that limit.

So I will report back on the next step tomoz, but look forward for any further input from anyone.

Thanks again,
 

·
President: Team Full Chat
Joined
·
8,217 Posts
From what I can tell the Pentagonal style inner baskets weren't made until the 929RR in 2000.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
HI all,

Ian,
Thank you for the update, I did wonder if I was looking at the wrong version.

Ok, so life, work and girlie has gotten between me and my Blade, but today managed to get the basket off.

I have some more pictures (sorry not had a chance to get a photo bucket acc. yet)

Pic4 is the housing and the pump chain, is that a bit loose? if it is it there any way to tighten it? Looks fixed to me or simply a worn chain? Also it I rotate the disk with the spiggots (sonnected to the oil pump) it squeaks a little, like wet rubber over a worktop, not loud but its there.....

Pic2 and 3- more concerning. I do not know if you guys can see it, but there is a concentric wear internally, like something has been thrashed around in there for a bit..thoughts?

Pic1 - So if I pick up the backet and shake it, it rattles. Measured the damper springs and I have marked them on the imagein red, top 2 showing 5 & 6mm of play, Right hand spring showing 8mm, left a shade under 4mm (closest I can get with a micrometer.)
Bottom left 2mm bottom right 3mm.

(All rounded down to the nearest mm)

So thoughts please, 'futterly Ucked, stop looking, throw it away and replace your cage outer and clutch itself!!!' or this is normal??? keep looking for the problem with vibration.

Clutch inner looks good except that you can see minor impressions of where the plates were, also you can just see the file marks in the impressions, but not notchy.

I invite thoughts here also, as I think that the donkey who sold me the bike had put the clutch plates in just before I bought it or I would expect to see more witness marks.

Anyway on closer inspection to the plates themselves, the metals are def OEM, teh frictions are a mish mash.

Outer plate says FP3 337 down to mid plates when they change to FP4 and the inner 3 frictions are quite badly worn/stepped. Is this just the way they normally wear? or, as I suspect, the bloke just 'farged' a clutch together to sell it?

Thanks guys, looking forward to your thoughts
 

Attachments

·
President: Team Full Chat
Joined
·
8,217 Posts
Here are some pics of my outer basket from my rebuild last year. I too don't like the scoring on the inside back wall of yours, but don't know if it's a cause of your vibration. And the springs rattling in the basket is normal I guess, both my 900's did it.

After looking at these pics, there's not a mark on the basket. I agree with you in saying that there was something in there that came apart at some point. Have you removed the oil pan and checked for any debris?








And the loose oil chain is right on. Normal.
 

·
President: Team Full Chat
Joined
·
8,217 Posts
And on my second inspection of your basket in this pic you took, it looks like there was an entire section on the bottom right that looks as though it was welded back on?? You might want to check runout or just try and get a new or newer one.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Hi Ian,

Thank you very much for the time and moreover pics.
Your cage looks nothing like mine.

The problem now is that I am presently in Italy and trying to source a new or near new cage.

I intend to replace the whole clutch itself as a matter of course as nothing is a given on the bike anymore.
Your photos are awesome as I now know what it should look like and yes,now that you point out the variance in the last image, alarm bells are ringing.

The bloke who sold it to me, did say his 'mate' was his mechanic and could fix anything, it is possible that he tried to, as you say, weld up the basket.

Annoying thing is that I return on the 6th and want to get parts ready so I re-assemble it. £450 for a new cage here in the UK or about £120 for a second hand one + clutch itself (around £60) including new gasket.

Thank you on the oil pump chain as it looked very wrong to me, but its good to get an affirmation on it.

So, time to dump the cage outer, get a replacement, new clutch, new springs and re-assemble see if that cures it.

As far as the pan, no I have not removed it, but it sounds as though I should just in case there is evidence left in there from whever has been done in the past.

Thanks again and will report back as I get parts fitted maybe to help any other poor sod like who bought a fartblood with little or no knowledge of the them.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
454 Posts
I think you are barking up the wrong tree entirely; the sort of vibration you describe is unlikely to be caused by the clutch since it turns more slowly than the crank and has far less mass. Unless there is something very obviously wrong (e.g. major runout of the basket, damage to teeth on the primary drive) then I'd look elsewhere.

The clutch looks pretty much perfect, my 20k mile RRX shows very similar (and very minor) wear to the basket and works perfectly.

Strong vibration like you describe is far more likely a problem with the bottom end of the engine itself, especially the flywheel/generator rotor and end of the crank which are both vulnerable to damage in an off. Getting the flywheel run-out checked with a DTI would be a good first step.

Is there any evidence the engine has been apart before, e.g. signs of gasket sealant, damaged fasteners heads etc?

The oil pump drivechain is fine, since the chain is so short they run with no tensioner and do tend to have a bit of slack in them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I agree with Benelliblade, most probable cause is replaced connection rods or pistons. This results in vibrations due to use of parts with non standard weight or uneven weights, not matching the crankshaft counter weights.

Also the vibrations could come from uneven power of the individual cylinders. Could be different compression ratios due to different pistons, but other factors affecting the power output of an individual cylinder could be a cause. Maybe even a combination of the above.

I would go for the low fruits first, if you can see axles running off centre. But if it looks good while rotating, it is probably also OK. The eye can detect off center values around 0.1 mm.

You can get a repair manual from here:

Repair / Service manuals - Honda

I would take it apart and inspect and weight all parts, you can probably get the weight of parts from other members with a disassembled engine.

I bought my blade 2 weeks ago, and drove more than 900 km the first week in nice weather. I have been lucky to get a bike shining like new, no scratches or problems.
I feel with you, no fun being forced to repair instead of riding the new bike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Hey chaps,
Benelli, thank you for your input.

Back from Italy,the Alps did not kill me,so alls good. :)

So on your advice Benelli, whipped the alt cover off this weekend.

There are veyr faint signs of black sealant, so it has clearly been off at least once before. Stuck a DTI on the bell and the end face with very next to no play, so sadly, it seams as though it was not that side.

I have bought a new, as in new not s/H clutch cage, clutch and springs awaiting delivery on the cage, so this is my last hope..if the problem is still there, then it has to be ends......

It looks as though they are accessable through the sump but as to the damage done, if the ends have been wrung, then the crank most probably will need to come out. In my rallying days, only occasionally could we wring a set of end bearings and not score the crank.

Still not had time to get the sump off, but sifted through the oil, no sparkles, or grittyness, it is quite blck though. The generator side of the engine internally looks new.

So I hope it is the clutch as I really do not want to pull the motor out.

Anyway, I will report and any futher thoughts would be gratefully appreciated.

Kind regrds,
Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Well gentlemen,

Finally got the old girl back together.
New clutch cage (springs rattled as bad as the old one I haveto confess) New none the less.
New clutch plates, both.
New springs, gaskets, oil change.
Checked the plugs, not done up as in compressed the 'compession washer' so whilst not loose, just finger tight. Found a few cracked pipes to and from the carbs.
Cleaned chain, which turned out to be a gold DID X, not that you would know it from the black state of it, now shiny and gold with loads of lube to remove the cleaning fliud (kerosene),.
New rear tyre.
Changed fork seals and reset front end geometry.
So, here we are....all good.
Started on the button, warmed her up. Now she will rev in neutral up to 9k freely, with a small flat spot around 4.5k.
9k (sounded far too mean to thrap up to 11k but it will rev without feeling like its coming apart)

Still some vibration, starts around 5k and zings through to 9k, do not know if that is normal? quite different vibration to the thrappy 6R. Also a low rumble from the clutch in neutral, with the clutch out....?

So far very happy, assume carb balancing is still required?
Mid range power knocks spots off the 6R.

Still another oddity thought....If you were driving an old land rover, when you select gears in driving you can feel the take up of the drive line, like a clunk.
I thought originally chain adjustment, checked again, a little on the looser side but within factory specs. A little disconcerting. Its almost like there is play in the gearbox,

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Back to the original issue, its much better, not completely gone, but much better.
With all the un-torqued, loose bolts and bad assembly I have found I think that either the 'wide boy' or his alledged 'motorcycle mechanic mate' wants a slap. Not take care of as professed.

None the less if you have any thoughts on the roughish running at higher revs and or other things to tune please let me know.

A chap who lives near me popped over wondering what all the racket was when RPM testing,saw the blade and couldnt shut him up, 'propper tool that is boy....!!!' and I have to say now that I have actually ridden it in ernest a bit I see what all the rage is a about.

So thankyou to everyone who has helped so far and look forward to any thoughts you may have,
Many thanks,
Mike
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
454 Posts
Regarding the shunt in the drivetrain, check that the cush drive in the rear wheel is in good order. Also check that the front sprocket is secured correctly to the gearbox output shaft, if the bolt hasn't been torqued correctly the splines will quickly wear and cause a lot of slop.

My RRX has a little bit of high frequency vibration, as do most litre bike engines without balancer shafts, but it's not intrusive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Hi Benelli,
Thank you for the advice and good to talk again.
Had the cushdrive out when changing the rear tyre. Looked new actually, but not a tight fit so maybe somecompression has occured there.
Gearbox sprocket sounds far more plausable. When fitting the cage and when I rotated the gearbox with the wheel still, I could feel take up, so I willwhip the cover off tomoz and check.
I truly hopeits not the gearboxend.Hard job to change if required?

Soooo closeto getting her right, I can almost taste it.......
Just want to iron out the last few niggles. Will also check the chain again just in case of settling (on hols for 10 days, and want to get both the blade completed and the 6R MOT'd.

I havet to say though the cornering on the blade is lovely by comparison, giveslots of confidence.

Then the dilema occures, keep the blade an move on the 6R or vice versa. Anyone who buys my blade knows 99% of the service items have been redone (properly this time).
I love the power and cruise of the blade, no limits, but the 6r is sooooo flicky and 'throw aroundable', slick and fun but I think if I can solve the last couple of things, the blade is the keeper.
I guess I just want a blade that is a known good with all unknowns checked and fixed so I can experience what a true blade is.

At least if anyone wanted it, I have proof of the vast amount of workdone.

So to conclude on the vibe, some is expected from this type of bike, (also noticed no bar end weight on the driver side) so that might help.

Will report back with front sprocket findings. Maybe just the chain and sprocked combo is very worn and not as good as it shouldbe and should be and a change is required regardless. should lower any road speed vibe from the bike,,,
Thoughts???

thanks again.
Mike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
101 Posts
You might also pull the flywheel cover and check it for runout.

When wrecked, the crank can bend, which I found out with my engine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Chaps,

Well I still cannot live with the vast amount of vibration from her.

Bought a DTi and checked the run out.....very hard to tell if anything...so poss not that. (I was seriously hoping it was..)

Thought I would have one last go at her before either she ends up in a freak yachting accident or spontaneous combustion happens.

Shunt in the drive line, def not chain sprocket or service. Cush look almost new, no signs of wear and honestly not at the top of my 'p*ssed off with the fireblade list'

However, vibration....rode her back to Norfolk the other week to see some old friends, and I have discovered that if I keep my feet off the heal guards, knees off the frame it is just about tolerable. Balanced the carbs again but thought I would have one last look at the clutch area.
So removed all of the plates from the cage.

Bearing in mind that she has a new basket, I could get a hold of the basket and move it up and down or side to side about 1mm poss 1.5mm.

With the bike buttoned up, she now revs freely, buzzy from 5.5k to 6.5k then smooths out up to 9k.

I loosened off and re-centred the exhaust mounting at the rear just in case there was metal to metal contact, which has made no perceptible difference , it was just a thought.

Thoughts that occur...

I guess the basket should not do that??!? Which would also explain the vibration?
The basket sits on a, not inconsiderable tubular spacer, could this be worn?

There are no witness marks on it, but I do not know what to look for beyond that.
Clutch centre is smooth and as tight as with no play at all, so can anyone shed any light on this?

One other thing, I was trying to nail down the whine which I passed off as gen noise (6R makes a similar noise) originally turns out to be in the head, stethascoped up its def top of the engine. Contributory factor or just what 'Blades' sound like?

Moreover, do I continue with her or just call it quits?

I really would love to get your thoughts guys and I am about to give up on the CBR dream and go back to Kwaka...that old crate has never given me a days problems.

Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,455 Posts
Bent crank or spun bearings?
Obviously, you guys have a shitton more engine knowledge than me, but since the first post I had a gut feeling about crank bearings.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
454 Posts
Maybe time to go back to basics. Check all the engine mounts are present, undamaged and fully torqued, a loose mount can cause pretty bad vibration.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top