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Discussion Starter #1
So far I have looked at:

Kawasaki KLR 650
BMW Dakar (ABS version)
KTM LC4 Adventure

The KLR is the cheapest and oldest technology. The KTM uses top notch hardware and has the biggest gas tank. It also is the highest seat and no side stand (only center stand) The BMW has the smallest tank but has FI so no re-jetting to go into the mountains. It also has the best warranty and the highest price.

Honda does not import an Adventure bike
 

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Skip the 650 bimmer, its a rotax engine...

Go straight to the 1150GS or go home!  

Actually, that LC4 in the KTM is supposed to be the stuff!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
ccwilli3 : Skip the 650 bimmer, its a rotax engine...

Go straight to the 1150GS or go home!  

Actually, that LC4 in the KTM is supposed to be the stuff!  
whats wrong with rotax?

The KTM does'nt even offer an extended warranty. (You have to buy 3rd party insurance) It IS the schnizel of the three though.

The 1150 GS is too heavy to really do offroad, unless you're built like a tank. That thing is HEAVY. and mostly TOP heavy. I've already proven not to do well with top - heavy...
 

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Just buy the new 700cc two stroke ATK. Put on some lights and a windscreen and you'll be good to go. Plus, ATK are made right here in the good ol' USA.
 

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Its still open loop, just like your hondas...  The FI gets no feedback on the output of the black box (ie, the motor) But it has a cat on it...

See the 1150GS, its closed loop... It monitors the output (the exhaust) and makes corrections...

EDIT: I did closed loop control as my concentration for my EE degree, so its kinda my thing...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Cool beans, this is a point I would probably always get switched around as its kinda ambiguous terminology...

I did some reading on the r1100gs.net forum about all their FI problems related to surges and stalling. At least Honda isnt the only bike with FI glitches.
 

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ccwilli3 : all honda sportbikes are open loop...
ccwilli, are you speaking generally? I'm 99% sure the O2 sensor'd CA bikes are closed loop. It would sure appear that way based on what we observed when Joel's O2 sensor failed.
 

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dB : ccwilli, are you speaking generally? I'm 99% sure the O2 sensor'd CA bikes are closed loop. It would sure appear that way based on what we observed when Joel's O2 sensor failed.
Yeah, I'm speaking generally...

The CA bikes are different. I'm not 100% sure how they work, but I would assume it to be some sort of steady state system. Like, you get on the freeway and maintain 5K rpms for a while, the ECU might take some kind of reading to make sure it isn't super duper rich or something.

But given that you can throw a resistor on it to defeat it (can't you?), tells me its just like a go/nogo gauge... No real a/f mixture reading is taken, rather, just if its good or not... RX7 rotary ECUs are like this... They run open loop just like our bikes, with a predetermined 'map' and only in steady state conditions does it consult the O2 sensor for readings...
 

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figment : Cool beans, this is a point I would probably always get switched around as its kinda ambiguous terminology...

I did some reading on the r1100gs.net forum about all their FI problems related to surges and stalling. At least Honda isnt the only bike with FI glitches.
figment, are you a network guy?  If so, its kinda like this, kinda, but not really...

Think of open loop as UDP, you send out all this info but you have no idea if they get it, its just broadcasted...  An open loop FI system doesn't really know if its running rich or lean, it just knows its running and what inputs were used to get there...

Think of closed loop as TCP...  You send out the info and you get an ack back letting you know message was received...  You know the engine is running in closed loop, and you know how its running because you take output readings...

An open loop still takes many readings on the input side.  The baro sensor, the coolant temp, the air temp, stuff like that...  It just doesn't know the end result or the answer...

Yeah, all those bimmer boxer twins, a lot of guys have problems with surging...  Its all over the RT boards too, its been a long time complaint from those guys and many of the dual plug guys claim the new head fixes it...  Who knows if it actually will because BMW has never admitted there was a surging problem to start with.  
 

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ccwilli3 : Quote (dB @ June 06 2003, 12:47pm)ccwilli, are you speaking generally? I'm 99% sure the O2 sensor'd CA bikes are closed loop. It would sure appear that way based on what we observed when Joel's O2 sensor failed.
Yeah, I'm speaking generally...

The CA bikes are different.  I'm not 100% sure how they work, but I would assume it to be some sort of steady state system.  Like, you get on the freeway and maintain 5K rpms for a while, the ECU might take some kind of reading to make sure it isn't super duper rich or something.

But given that you can throw a resistor on it to defeat it (can't you?), tells me its just like a go/nogo gauge...  No real a/f mixture reading is taken, rather, just if its good or not...  RX7 rotary ECUs are like this...  They run open loop just like our bikes, with a predetermined 'map' and only in steady state conditions does it consult the O2 sensor for readings...
Ok.

You're probably right about the steady throttle function, but I do believe it adjusts a/f mixture based on O2 sensor readings when it's checked.

The problem started as surging under steady throttle. We defeated the O2 sensor with a resistor and the surging disappeared, however his fuel mileage dropped by 10-15% (maybe more, you out there Joel?).

Honda replaced the O2 sensor under warranty and all is well again, including fuel mileage.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah I UNDERSTAND the concepts very well, just the TERMS get switched in my head, the term OPEN and CLOSED dont relate to anything for me cause I dont associate them with the concepts.

BOT:
Well I test rode the KLR and the Dakar this morning. The KLR could not get out of its own way and the brakes were awful. The Dakar was SWEEEEEET! Suspension was fantastic and the power was 'there' for a 650. Brakes were good. Then I made the terrible mistake of test riding an 1150. Well despite their monsterous LOOK with that HUUUUUGE gas tank. They're not much more top heavy than the Dakar. Guess its the low CG from the boxer engine Now I have to consider the GS1150 Adventure... It's about 5k more than I wanted to spend though.
 

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I'm wondering if it has a normal map like the 49 state bike for running around and spirited riding and then in a steady state or 'cruise' map, it reverts to the second map when it detects a steady state situation, which would be indicated by the O2 bung you have?

That would explain the poor fuel mileage, it would be on the 'power' map all the time then... *shurg*
 

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figment : Well I test rode the KLR and the Dakar this morning. The KLR could not get out of its own way and the brakes were awful. The Dakar was SWEEEEEET! Suspension was fantastic and the power was 'there' for a 650. Brakes were good. Then I made the terrible mistake of test riding an 1150. Well despite their monsterous LOOK with that HUUUUUGE gas tank. They're not much more top heavy than the Dakar. Guess its the low CG from the boxer engine Now I have to consider the GS1150 Adventure... It's about 5k more than I wanted to spend though.
DO IT!

I'm jealous, I've been wanting to demo a GS for a long time! Go 1150! Its soooo much more bike!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
ccwilli3 : Yeah, all those bimmer boxer twins, a lot of guys have problems with surging...  Its all over the RT boards too, its been a long time complaint from those guys and many of the dual plug guys claim the new head fixes it...  Who knows if it actually will because BMW has never admitted there was a surging problem to start with.  
The poop I got from the sales guy is it not really surging, just 'hunting' and the problem is hard to find, but easier if you hear about it on the internet LOL. He said the 2plug heads were made to fix the hunt between 3 and 4krpm....
 
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