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It doesn't surprise me at all. I think "the bar" has been lowered significantly in the past 10+ years. That's part of the reason college degrees don't mean as much as they used to.

Standards are lower for getting into a lot of colleges, tests are "standardized" and often multiple choice. The most disturbing thing to me is that instead of coming down on their child for performing poorly, more parents are apt to blame the school or teacher.
 

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DUX said:
It doesn't surprise me at all. I think "the bar" has been lowered significantly in the past 10+ years. That's part of the reason college degrees don't mean as much as they used to.

Standards are lower for getting into a lot of colleges, tests are "standardized" and often multiple choice. The most disturbing thing to me is that instead of coming down on their child for performing poorly, more parents are apt to blame the school or teacher.
:plus1: it amazes me the people that cannot do basic math in thier head
 

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I don't think the bar has been lowered at universities.

I didn't graduate all that long ago, and my math teachers told us we were doing what was research level calculus in the 60's in Calc I now. Much of the engineering we did around complicated subjects like fracture mechanics and control systems theory was not understood in the slightest by my profs when they were in school (not due to intelligence, due to the march of science).

The university I went to was under fire for accepting students that actually needed remedial math/english help several years ago. Due to the bubble of kids in the university system right now, they were able to do away with this, requiring more of their entry qualifications.

In CA, the results for the majority of law students taking the bar went up last year.

I think there are far deeper issues here. I think some of the skills this test was looking for are normally taught by parents...which IMO are taking less responsibility for their kids now.

What was the average for the normal standardized tests for these kids?
 

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luvtolean said:
I don't think the bar has been lowered at universities.

I didn't graduate all that long ago, and my math teachers told us we were doing what was research level calculus in the 60's in Calc I now. Much of the engineering we did around complicated subjects like fracture mechanics and control systems theory was not understood in the slightest by my profs when they were in school (not due to intelligence, due to the march of science).
:plus1: I look at the level of work my kids are doing in college and high school and am amazed. The entry requirements to get into many of the top universities continues to get tougher, not easier.
 

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BDA116 said:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
An excellent look into why the public school system is a steaming pile of overfunded, uneducating crap.
The government controls what otherwise good teachers are able to actually teach and do, and these zombies come out of the public system with half the knowledge of 15 years ago.
With all do respect BDA, we will agree to disagree.

Being an educator there are several factors that come in to play with some of the problems of education.

I saw his News Article and agree with a few items:
1) Tenure has become for a very select minority the crutch of job security. I as an educator am completely for the removal of tenure and increase evaluations based on merit... NOT TEST SCORES.

Educators must be a one-strike occupation.... in regards to drugs and sexual misconduct... it does take too long for someone to lose their job, but once again a minority.

2) Education is competing with children's interest. Too much time is spent on Internet, TV, Playstation, Xbox, Dancing, Youth Football, and the entertain me Mommy and Daddy mentality, instead of Mommy and Daddy look at my homework, count with me, spell with me. Now there are great parents who do this and do it well, but that is a minority. Education, hence is losing in the competition.

Now:
Teachers are professionals, all have Bachelors, most have masters, and except for some rare communities are some of the least paid, but most highly scrutinized professionals.

BDA... I have won the Indiana Outstanding Educator award, the lame Whose Who Among American Teachers, and Midwest Outstanding Music Educator award. Would you like to know what my calculated hourly salary was for marching band season? ... $3.17 an hour.

Am I complaining? Absolutely not. Most educators love what they are doing... we have great days and not so great days. I look at my 140 students who stand in rank and file.... learn an 8 minute show from memory, learn 83 charts, and practice 18 hours a week, not including in class music time and appreciate everything they do and the sacrifices they make.

The article discussed teachers having cell phones so kids can call up to nine at night. Would any professional be willing to do this at $28,000 as their starting salary? Some perks in the occupation allow us the opportunity to have more time off from the work space, but walk a day with a teacher and see that the school bells are not the end of the work day. I usually am preparing or grading an addition two to three hours a day for what needs to be done:

Order instruments, music, reeds, parts,
Call: Parents, vendors, administrators, and etc.
Meet With: Parents, administrators, fellow teachers, academic teams, testing result meetings and discussion, safety committee, parent/teachers conferences, school board meetings, music booster meetings, middle school jazz band night practice, basketball games, football games, pep rallies, and chaperone dances.
Prepare: Lesson Plans, grade homework, grading in to the computer system, return emails from parents and many other people, schedule concerts, perform concerts, create programs, banquets, awards ceremonies, purchase the awards, pick them up, and on and on it goes.

Ohh and by the way all these things are not during the school day. Why do I do so many things that are also not education related? Two reasons.... 1) To provide students opportunities and 2) The parents, students, and community demand it. “Why was my child not recognized for doing what he was supposed to do?”

Us adults could not handle what these children are doing in the classroom today. This is both good and bad. Students in elementary school are doing expository writing. They are learning algebra at fifth grade in some schools. PowerPoint, Excel, Hyper studio, Home Studio, Sibellius, things that would blow your mind.

When you do the above, sometimes with great regret, basics gets lost in the shuffle. But, when your state exam demands the above and your school's funding and community support is based on the above.... guess what a school is going to focus on? But once again I ask where is the parents in all of this? We have become a drop off and make my kid who is going to be society.... I will pick him up in seven hours. As I said before there are lots of parents who invest time in their child... a good majority does not, when it comes to school learning.

And once again, I love every moment of it. It has many times put my relationship with my wife in strain and not because of glory, my name on a plaque, but the look on a kids face when they have done something great.

(not directly aimed at you BDA) How about you sit down with your child with a can of coins and have him/her count it and figure out what 10/15/20 percent is?

We complain too easily, but I ask how many of us walk in to a school and say, "my name is so and so, Johnny's dad and if you need any help, I am here."

Can education be improved? Yes... where does it need to start.... in the home where parents need to be educated themselves on what their role should be, because education does not start and end at the doors of that school building.

So if Stossel says schools are failing our kids... we have all failed.

I appreciate the back handed compliment to the educators, but remember the educators are the school system. So when people say that public education is failing, you are saying that teachers are failing. Plus when you try to claim schools are overfunded.... you might want to really look at not the crazy math that the article tried to present, but what a true financial sheet looks like.

We have almost 35% of our kids not able to afford lunch in our school system, so guess who pays for it. If they can not afford lunch, I will bet you that includes books, fees, and materials. In music here, $7.00 is spent on each student per year for those students who are enrolled for music. The average single selection of music to purchase for band is around $200.00. So we have to fundraise to pay for all of our expenses the only thing the school pays for is our salaries, that is it. We raise $96,000 a year to fund our program.
 

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Nationwide the government is dumping an average of $10K/student into gubmint indoctrination. The school system itself sucks. There are many good educators, but the system of boards, districts and all the administrators in between is sucking the money dry.
If the school systems went to a charter/private system the children would be better educated with less money spent and more of it into the teachers' pockets.
The school system in the United States is a joke, and I shouldn't have to be forced to spend money on it.
Yeah, parents have a great responsibility with the children, but when the parents actually try to teach their kids, then the kids go to school and have what their parents taught them cut down and destroyed only to be replaced by what the gubmint wants to control, it completely undermines that.
You know full well that happens on a daily basis.
The "new math" crock of shit that schools "teach" (in reality force upon otherwise intelligent kids) makes children unable to count coins and determine a percentage. Proper teaching of basic math by parents in the home overturns that.
This whole B.S. of not using letter grades or red pencils for fear of making a kid feel bad is horseshit as well.
I could go on for pages, but you being in the system know damned well that it sucks and has failed.
Teachers' unions and tenure as well as the gubmint controlling the children's minds has destroyed the public school system, period. The only way out is to privatize like poor nations that spend less than half per student than the U.S. yet have students that perform more than twice as well as U.S. students.
 

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Well, thats sad. I wonder how poorly educated h.s. graduates are, even dropouts. I coulda sworn higher education was for a certain type of person, say smart people even? So how is it that a vast majority of college grads cannot do day to day activities let alone some complex task, such as calculating where radar waves are gonna bounce, at their lockheed martin job? I'm not so sure about this article, sure your going to have an exception here and there. For example, I never went to college however it's nice to think i can caculate my credit card intrest fee for any given month, or find myself on a map. Furthermore, the people that i do know who have a four year degree in a complex field such as chemisty(like my g/f), or a m.d. degree(like one of my riding buddies) are wicked smart and funny and could easily do math??? but who knows, maybe cnn thinks our education system is lacking. perhaps it is, but then again isn't our financial system, gov., roadways, media base(for propoganda purposes), my front lawn, ect.... you get the picture. It may be easy to find flaws but its harder to find solutions, if cnn thinks they can teach better have at it........haha mini rant over......but thats how i see it in my world.......
 

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Red Rider said:
:plus1: I look at the level of work my kids are doing in college and high school and am amazed. The entry requirements to get into many of the top universities continues to get tougher, not easier.
You guys are talking about motivated students in good programs. I'm talking about students who slide through the system (both high-school and college)and meet the minimum requirements in curriculums that are more concerned about generating money than quality graduates.

There's a nursing program near here that requires a 70% on your practical to graduate. :eek: How do you think the 30% of patients who had the wrong medicine given to them will feel about that? It's scary.
 

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I would bet you are an awesome instructor Depo and yes your particular area requires HUGE extra effort to even be mediocre. Professionals, sorry no. Teachers could be professionals but with the union chose not to be (yes I know the 'choice' was made in the past) The shame is that, allowed to be professionals again most teachers would gain. A few would be banished and students and the country would benefit. I think the only way this can be achieved is through a high degree of privatization.

Oh as for starting salary, I read somewhere that as a group teachers had the lowest SAT scores when compared to other schools (engineering, science, social sciences, medicine, etc). Though if merit pay was available the higher scores could earn more than some of the idiots.

I once dated a Junior High School SCIENCE teacher who was amazed when I estimated time to go on a drive. She had not heard of the distance formula and when I started to explain shrugged it off. She also thought nuclear reactions needed water as all nuclear plants are near lakes or rivers :eek: She was considered a 'great' teacher in her district. Lastly she had a general distain for her students, more so the boys.
 

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sheepofblue said:
I would bet you are an awesome instructor Depo and yes your particular area requires HUGE extra effort to even be mediocre. Professionals, sorry no. Teachers could be professionals but with the union chose not to be (yes I know the 'choice' was made in the past) The shame is that, allowed to be professionals again most teachers would gain. A few would be banished and students and the country would benefit. I think the only way this can be achieved is through a high degree of privatization..
So how about engineers who work for say Lockheed and have to belong to a union? Are they not professionals either?
 

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luvtolean said:
So how about engineers who work for say Lockheed and have to belong to a union? Are they not professionals either?
No they are not. If I was hiring and an engineer applied that was ex-union that would be a strike against them. A professional stands on personal merit and is willing to be hired or fired at a whim (your quality should not only prevent firing it should guarantee the next job should it happen). Given to job opportunities one being union and the other being personal merit I would take the second in almost every case.

Would you want a doctor that was protected by the union? How about a lawyer? No you would want the best possible for the job at hand at the price you can afford.
 

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luvtolean said:
So how about engineers who work for say Lockheed and have to belong to a union? Are they not professionals either?

I agree LTL

I am not in the school union by choice, but I will tell you this..... to say educators are not professionals is foolish. There are acceptions to the rule, but......


Your SAT scores may be correct, but why would a person with 1400 SAT want to be a teacher and make 30,000 a year. When a nurse can make 75,000?

By the way my ACT score was 33.... and I am a member of MENSA...163, does that make me smart? By no stretch of the imagination.
 

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DEPO said:
I agree LTL

I am not in the school union by choice, but I will tell you this..... to say educators are not professionals is foolish. There are acceptions to the rule, but......


Your SAT scores may be correct, but why would a person with 1400 SAT want to be a teacher and make 30,000 a year. When a nurse can make 75,000?

By the way my ACT score was 33.... and I am a member of MENSA...163, does that make me smart? By no stretch of the imagination.
But by my definition you are a professional. You do what you are good at using you degree while standing on your PERSONAL record. This is not true of most teachers.

Hmmm 163 IQ and 33 ACT and a teacher.... I bet YOU can tell us why ;) Money is nice but far from everything. Most people that get into a trade for the money are poor at it (engineers especially)
 

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DEPO said:
I agree LTL

I am not in the school union by choice, but I will tell you this..... to say educators are not professionals is foolish. There are acceptions to the rule, but......


Your SAT scores may be correct, but why would a person with 1400 SAT want to be a teacher and make 30,000 a year. When a nurse can make 75,000?

By the way my ACT score was 33.... and I am a member of MENSA...163, does that make me smart? By no stretch of the imagination.
:) I had a teacher who had an inferiority complex about the title "engineer" was not the same as "MD" in the US, where in many other countries, he'd worked in South America, the term engineer meant the kind that designs things, not the guy doing facilities work.

Anyways, he said engineers in the US had brought some of the lack of professional credit by allowing unions.

Now, the vast majority of engineers aren't in a union, but if you want to work at Lockheed, you join one. And I don't think that makes the person "not a professional".

I consider myself lucky not to have to join a union to do what I want to. But if I joined one, I'd still consider myself a professional. Union or not.
 

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A professional is someone who gets paid for performing a task. Plain and simple. Whether in a union or not still a professional as long as they get paid.

As someone pointed out the entrance criteria for colleges seems to be harder than is used to be. That is only for some colleges. The ones that everyone wants to get a degree from.

There are more colleges today than ever and a lot of those colleges accept breathing as significant criteria. And because of these colleges many many people have college degrees when they really shouldn't. And that is a problem. The degrees are purchased. Whether or not the student actually learned something is superfluous. Getting a job that pays more is the goal. And most humans will take the path of least resistance for the greatest reward.

I don't blame the students or the teachers or the schools. It is a societal problem and we will all pay for it eventually. I can tell you though from personal experience that those surveys are correct. There are a lot of ignorant people in this country with college degrees. And I will agree that a lot of teachers are not the brightest people out there. But again how do you attract the best to a profession that treats its professionals like crap.
 
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