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Discussion Starter #1
I want to bore my 954 1mm.
I know it can be done as several companies make +1mm piston kits for the
929 and 954.
So, I requested a price for re-plating the cylinders locally.
The response I received this morning:

" I believe the CBR954RR has an Alusil bore. If this is the case they are not suitable to just bore and coat with the our coating. Firstly we need to manufacture thin wall alloy sleeves, bore the block,install the alloy liners and then coat and hone them. The approx cost to do this modification could be as high as A$4000 depending on the block casting. It is a very time consuming mod and the materials are not cheap."

Before I ask them what the hell they're on about is anybody aware of a 929 or 954 that has been re-plated regardless of whether they've been bored?
Does anybody know of somebody willing to simply re-plate the bores for me?
 

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you have to remember that these engines are made to be as light as possible (ie as little metal as possible). that being said, the 954 is a 929 engine with a 1mm bore, giving it an extra 25 cc's. I remember a while back on this site people mentioning that 954 was pretty much the most they could get out of that engine, so it makes sense that there would be an extensive process to re enforce the engine and take no chances if you were to bore the 954. In terms of cost... thats another story.

What are the chances that you pick up a newer 1000rr engine and try to fit that into the 954? whole engine prices (used) seem to be cheaper than trying to make a 979cc blade.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The 929 and the 954 can both be over-bored 1mm maximum due to the thin liners. The 954 bored 1mm leaves just 4mm of aluminium between the cylinders.
The reason they're giving for re-sleeving is not a matter of strength or lack of material but simply the incompatibility of their coating with Honda's. Their cost would be the same even to simply replate the bores without boring them.
If I have to install new liners I'll happily do so as I'd already considered iron liners as an option as perhaps allowing me to bore it a little further and being stronger than the cast aluminium.
I'm not trying to make a 979cc Blade as I'm also stroking the crank - the boring would simply be a small bonus.
I already know I can have the OEM cylinders bored here for A$240 but I haven't found anybody to plate them.
Since the plating is only 6-10 thou thick in the surface I can't see why it would matter if the coatings aren't compatible as Honda's coating won't exist after boring 0.5mm of material away anyway.
I have looked at putting a 1000RR engine in but it's 3kg heavier and I don't think it's a significant enough improvement over the 954 (or the 929) to warrant the work of making the new swingarm connection to the frame and engine. I am still considering putting 1000RR electrics, injection and ECU on at a later date though.
I can get normal hard-chrome done locally but I don't know if it's suitable for the bores so I'm going to investigate that avenue further.
I have no problem with shipping the case to the US (or anywhere else) for plating though if somebody can put me onto somebody able to do it.
I have emailed wiseco about the coating compatibility since they must've encountered 929/954 boring jobs before.
 

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I am by no means an expert, but all the boring Ive heard of was just an easy recoating of the cylinders without all that fancy mumbo jumbo with sleeves and whatnot.
 

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I'm not trying to make a 979cc Blade as I'm also stroking the crank - the boring would simply be a small bonus.
.
:eek: So what capacity is it going to be after all this Larry? :eyebrows:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am by no means an expert, but all the boring Ive heard of was just an easy recoating of the cylinders without all that fancy mumbo jumbo with sleeves and whatnot.
Then you're in the same boat as I am :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
:eek: So what capacity is it going to be after all this Larry? :eyebrows:
Well, the plan was for 1052cc but I haven't nailed very much of it down just yet. I'm always open to modifying my plan as I discover better, cheaper or quicker options :)
But it's looking like +4mm on the crank is no big problem. Talking with a guy about making a billet crank rather than mod the OEM one. More money but it's stronger and there are no constraints on width and diameter of journals or rods.
As I said, +1mm in the bores would be a nice little bonus but the minor increase in capacity isn't a deal breaker if it's too hard.
I need custom pistons anyway so it just seems like a missed opportunity if I can't go the whole hog.
Crank, rods and pistons are looking like about an eight-week wait but I need firm numbers so I can order the bits and then I have heaps of time to fiddle with what's left.
 

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Well, the plan was for 1052cc but I haven't nailed very much of it down just yet. I'm always open to modifying my plan as I discover better, cheaper or quicker options :)
But it's looking like +4mm on the crank is no big problem. Talking with a guy about making a billet crank rather than mod the OEM one. More money but it's stronger and there are no constraints on width and diameter of journals or rods.
As I said, +1mm in the bores would be a nice little bonus but the minor increase in capacity isn't a deal breaker if it's too hard.
I need custom pistons anyway so it just seems like a missed opportunity if I can't go the whole hog.
Crank, rods and pistons are looking like about an eight-week wait but I need is firm numbers so I can order the bits and then I have heaps of time to fiddle with what's left.
Do you think the motor might become fragile by doing this as it was supposed to be near it's limit size wise as a 954. Plus with the extra "go harder" bits and mods you might be building an expensive grenade. But on the other hand you do seem very knowleagable about this stuff. So what's the donk going in, a race bike or a roadie?
 

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I sold my pristine, low-milage 954 to someone who modded the engine.

I'm not sure if he bored it or not (I think he did for drag-racing,) but the motor blew up no too long afterwards.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Not really.
I am curious as to the bore centres on the '08 1000RR as that's running 76mm pistons. If it's still running 80mm centres then that might give me some clues as to how far I can take the 954. 76mm leaves 4mm of cast aluminium between the cylinders so I'm wondering if replacing them with iron liners might let me take them to 77mm. Stock 75mm pistons have 6.5mm thick aluminium liners and boring those to 76mm leaves 6.0mm and 77mm leaves 5.5mm which should be heaps in an iron liner.
I'm doing all the calculations so as not to exceed the OEM piston speed and rod loading so the rev limiter will be around 11,500rpm with redline around 11,000rpm.
I could either build a volatile 954cc engine or a less volatile 1052cc engine to achieve the same horsepower result.
Besides that it's a lot more fun to replace everything in the engine :)
Once I have the stroke written in stone then I can make final adjustments to everything else.
I think the cams are going to be the hardest part as stock items are designed to peak higher up the rev range.
For my racebike but all my racebikes are also my road bikes.
 

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who/where are you getting the rods from? I wanted to do the stroker crank before but never could find anyone to make the rods unless it was in large batches. I didn't look too hard though, really just checked out some web pages.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
There are lots of places including Carrillo that will make the rods.
 

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Not really.
I am curious as to the bore centres on the '08 1000RR as that's running 76mm pistons. If it's still running 80mm centres then that might give me some clues as to how far I can take the 954. 76mm leaves 4mm of cast aluminium between the cylinders so I'm wondering if replacing them with iron liners might let me take them to 77mm. Stock 75mm pistons have 6.5mm thick aluminium liners and boring those to 76mm leaves 6.0mm and 77mm leaves 5.5mm which should be heaps in an iron liner.
I'm doing all the calculations so as not to exceed the OEM piston speed and rod loading so the rev limiter will be around 11,500rpm with redline around 11,000rpm.
I could either build a volatile 954cc engine or a less volatile 1052cc engine to achieve the same horsepower result.
Besides that it's a lot more fun to replace everything in the engine :)
Once I have the stroke written in stone then I can make final adjustments to everything else.
I think the cams are going to be the hardest part as stock items are designed to peak higher up the rev range.
For my racebike but all my racebikes are also my road bikes.
Very interesting Larry. Please keep me or us posted on the progress as I want to know the end result.:thumb:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Will do.
There hasn't been much point posting anything until I have the bottom end specs nailed down.
And I'll be keeping a photographic record of the build so I can look back and see exactly where I made the mistake that makes it all go wrong ;-)

Just re-read the thread and noticed I've made some mistakes (been awake for 29 hours now - just about to crawl into bed). The bores are at 81mm centres and the stock 75mm bores leave 6mm of material between them. Boring to 76mm leaves 5.0mm between the bores. 77mm leaves 4.0mm of material which I figure is way too thin for cast aluminium but made me think iron sleeves would be strong enough for 77mm pistons.
 

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Just re-read the thread and noticed I've made some mistakes (been awake for 29 hours now - just about to crawl into bed). The bores are at 81mm centres and the stock 75mm bores leave 6mm of material between them. Boring to 76mm leaves 5.0mm between the bores. 77mm leaves 4.0mm of material which I figure is way too thin for cast aluminium but made me think iron sleeves would be strong enough for 77mm pistons.
Yeah, I thought you had made a boo boo there with the thingo and the whatsy sizes :nono: , but i was'nt going to point it out untill I had calkoo, calkal, calua,.............. worked it out on the size thingy :idunno: .:confused:
 

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i'm very interested in how you work this out. I have a 929 and a 954 and have been thinking of working over the 929's motor as its out of the bike. . . havent really been able to find much helpful info on the topic. people told me to get nitrous or turbo, but i think i'd want to do some motor work if that was happening anyway?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I'll post everything I do with it.
I've been crook and missed the second half of this season. I'm making some improvement finally (I hope!) so I figured I'd spend some time in the workshop since I can't be on the track.
I'd like to modify everything in the engine just for the hell of it.
The ideas as they stand at the moment (it changes as I do more research).
Stroked crank
Custom rods
Custom 13:1 pistons
Port the head
Lightweight valves
Aluminium lifters
Titanium retainers
Race springs
Custom cams
Dry sump
Lightweight clutch
Lightened transmission
1000RR dual injector throttle bodies and ECU
1000RR radiator
I haven't really found any way of improving the water pump but I haven't spent a lot of time on it yet. I know electric pumps aren't viable as they're _very_ heavy - without including the battery to run them.
I bought a turbo to put on something but I can't decide what - I think I'll probably end up putting it on one of my GSXR's.
Nitrous is a complete waste of time and effort in my opinion as it has no practical value whatever. Engine mods or a turbo you get the enjoyment every time you fire the bike up.
 

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So how much do you think the full motor build is going to cost you??? and isnt 13:1 a pretty volatile ratio???
 

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Discussion Starter #19
13.5:1 should be fine on premium 95 and I run 98 anyway.
My GSXR750 is 13.05:1 and runs fine on regular unleaded.
As for cost, a lot :)
Ballpark figures:
The 954 engine cost me about $1100.
Crank - $600 to stroke and lighten (haven't got a price for a billet crank yet)
Pistons - $600
Rods - $1200 (prices vary a lot from $700 up to $6000 for ti)
Boring and plating - $800
Valves, retainers and springs - $1000
Cams - $600 (assuming I get the design right the first time)
1000RR throttle bodies, ECU and radiator - $500 off Ebay
Clutch, transmission, lifters, porting and dry sump I'll do myself.
New bolts, bearings, gaskets and such - $500
Already got full the race Akra system, PC2 and Wideband Commander.
Basically, what I would've spent racing half of this season I figure I can spend on the engine for next season :)
A billet crank is a lot more money but I can build it to suit a particular OEM rod so there could be a big saving on not having custom rods and/or pistons made - there's more research to do in that direction still.
 
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