Ok, guys!! a week ago, I went to a toy run, left my house, drove to by buddy's house (6 miles) to pick him up then went on the hightway to a meeting location with other bikers, (20 miles) found a place to park cut bike off, went inside for 20 mins, came back out, and my batt was dead......:idunno: so we jump the bike off, and it ran perfect drove to the drop the toy off (10 miles) after that I didn't like that fact of not cutting my bike off so decided to go home:thumbd: on the way home my instrument panel and light kept coming on and off, finally 1 mile away from the house it died.. i call the honda dealer and explain ... he said that it was my regulator that went bad... I ask about the stator and he said no, cause if the stator was bad the bike would not rev up.. so I got a new regulator coming. my question is HAS ANYONE HAD THIS PROBLEM>>??? I have a 04' 1000RR ... please feedback!!:thumb:
EZCBR
I'm pretty sure your Honda dealer is mistaken here. A fried stator should not in any way prevent the engine reving up. The Fireblade and the CBF1000 (which has a modified Fireblade engine) are known to fry the stator.
Have your dealer not diagnozed the stator output properly with a tester before rushing into ordering the regulator?
Have your dealer not diagnozed the stator output properly with a tester before rushing into ordering the regulator?
For the 2008 Fireblade the Honda Shop Manual says:
- remove fuel tank
- disconnect the alternator 3P (black) connector
- meassure resistance between all yellow terminals (should be 0.1 to 1.0 Ohm)
- meassure resistance between all yellow terminals and ground (should be very large, i.e. close to infinity)
Your bike is probably much the same procedure. The stator has 3 windings, hence there should be 3 yellow wires.
cheers ... Fred
- remove fuel tank
- disconnect the alternator 3P (black) connector
- meassure resistance between all yellow terminals (should be 0.1 to 1.0 Ohm)
- meassure resistance between all yellow terminals and ground (should be very large, i.e. close to infinity)
Your bike is probably much the same procedure. The stator has 3 windings, hence there should be 3 yellow wires.
cheers ... Fred
Honda is not the only company with stator problems. There are fundamental physical difficulties in constructing a generator with permanent magnets that has to operate over a large rpm range, hence all manufactures using this principle have to fight with four issues:
1) very large currents at low rpm causes excessive temperatures inside the windings of the stator.
2) very high voltages at high rpm causes breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.
3) temperature cycles inside the stator causes mechanical expansion and compression and consequent cracks in insulation materials.
4) the subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.
Generators in cars typically uses electromagnets instead of permanent magnets, and can hence adjust field strength to adapt to the actual rpm. This keeps currents, voltages and temperatures inside much narrower ranges and thus stresses materials less. The actual voltage regulation is in this way done inside the generator itself and not in an external DC to DC switching converter.
cheers ... Fred
1) very large currents at low rpm causes excessive temperatures inside the windings of the stator.
2) very high voltages at high rpm causes breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.
3) temperature cycles inside the stator causes mechanical expansion and compression and consequent cracks in insulation materials.
4) the subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.
Generators in cars typically uses electromagnets instead of permanent magnets, and can hence adjust field strength to adapt to the actual rpm. This keeps currents, voltages and temperatures inside much narrower ranges and thus stresses materials less. The actual voltage regulation is in this way done inside the generator itself and not in an external DC to DC switching converter.
cheers ... Fred
This principal of the Japanese using a three phase excited field alternator similar to the one in the CBR goes back to the early 1970s when it was first tried on a few bikes for mass production. The GT750 in 1972 used a similar principal but had a wound rotor with brushes placed inside the field winding.
Like the CBR, it delivered three outputs or phases generating alternating current (the yellow wires) which was then bridge rectified to direct current and finally regulated.
The problem here with this design is due to a few things, to which Fred has explained most of them.
The manufacturers have struggled with design and performance for years on this and the CBR charging components are working in a harsh environment with space as a premium.
Also the RPM range is massive on the CBR, from 0 to 11,000 rpms, thats a lot of output variables as well as engine vibration frequencies, a killer of insulation in any winding.
Maybe the GT was luckier, as it only had a 7000 rpm redline so the windings were under less stress, either way you can expect winding failure eventually from vibration induced insulation failure.
The biggest achilles heel of the CBR system is the regulator/rectifier, again very small for a compact design, and working under a lot of stress. So much so it has to be mounted on a heat sink (the frames flat plate) to help cool it.
A unit such as the one offered by Electrosport is a step up from the stock one, as its finned and uses some ceramic components to keep internals running cooler.
Its also a bit bigger than the stock unit which means they gave components more room for better design efficiency and heat dissipation.
All of the charging components work together to perform properly, a problem developing in any area and the others have an imbalance that will lead to a certain failure if left unchecked.
For example the battery develops a weak cell, the regulator sees this as a undercharged battery so it dumps more voltage into the circuit to help fix the issue and cycles the charge rate up and down more often than needed.
As it does this rapid cycling it runs even hotter, if it does this for long enough and you happen to have a weak or dirty connection on the unit, it usually melts the wires sheathing and creates a high resistance issue that can burn through the plastic socket and burn out the regulator/rectifier.
Check your batteries condition often, if its a wet cell unit keep the levels up, after it reaches two years of age and older you should have it load tested even if it seems ok.
Check the regulator/rectifier socket for clean and tight male/female connections, also check the three pin alternator socket where it goes into the main harness for the same thing, and apply dielectric grease to the connections after cleaning them.
If you see something charge related on your bike not as it normally should be, a lazy sounding starter, flickering warning lamps, a weak sounding horn, dig into it asap.
Like the CBR, it delivered three outputs or phases generating alternating current (the yellow wires) which was then bridge rectified to direct current and finally regulated.
The problem here with this design is due to a few things, to which Fred has explained most of them.
The manufacturers have struggled with design and performance for years on this and the CBR charging components are working in a harsh environment with space as a premium.
Also the RPM range is massive on the CBR, from 0 to 11,000 rpms, thats a lot of output variables as well as engine vibration frequencies, a killer of insulation in any winding.
Maybe the GT was luckier, as it only had a 7000 rpm redline so the windings were under less stress, either way you can expect winding failure eventually from vibration induced insulation failure.
The biggest achilles heel of the CBR system is the regulator/rectifier, again very small for a compact design, and working under a lot of stress. So much so it has to be mounted on a heat sink (the frames flat plate) to help cool it.
A unit such as the one offered by Electrosport is a step up from the stock one, as its finned and uses some ceramic components to keep internals running cooler.
Its also a bit bigger than the stock unit which means they gave components more room for better design efficiency and heat dissipation.
All of the charging components work together to perform properly, a problem developing in any area and the others have an imbalance that will lead to a certain failure if left unchecked.
For example the battery develops a weak cell, the regulator sees this as a undercharged battery so it dumps more voltage into the circuit to help fix the issue and cycles the charge rate up and down more often than needed.
As it does this rapid cycling it runs even hotter, if it does this for long enough and you happen to have a weak or dirty connection on the unit, it usually melts the wires sheathing and creates a high resistance issue that can burn through the plastic socket and burn out the regulator/rectifier.
Check your batteries condition often, if its a wet cell unit keep the levels up, after it reaches two years of age and older you should have it load tested even if it seems ok.
Check the regulator/rectifier socket for clean and tight male/female connections, also check the three pin alternator socket where it goes into the main harness for the same thing, and apply dielectric grease to the connections after cleaning them.
If you see something charge related on your bike not as it normally should be, a lazy sounding starter, flickering warning lamps, a weak sounding horn, dig into it asap.
On the 1000rr fried stators are a lot more common than fried regulators. Your regulator could still be bad, but I'd be checking the stator first.
In 06 Honda fitted a slightly different fly wheel (magnets) to try to fix the problem.
Still had failures.
When the stator failed on my 05 Honda replaced the stator and flywheel with the newer version.
On the 05 it was a no charge job. Not sure of the 04 s.
Also don't understand how they could identify the problem by wether the bike reved up or not.
If the stator or regelator are bad and the battery goes flat the bike will not rev.
In 06 Honda fitted a slightly different fly wheel (magnets) to try to fix the problem.
Still had failures.
When the stator failed on my 05 Honda replaced the stator and flywheel with the newer version.
On the 05 it was a no charge job. Not sure of the 04 s.
Also don't understand how they could identify the problem by wether the bike reved up or not.
If the stator or regelator are bad and the battery goes flat the bike will not rev.
Hi 900RR and GRD,
900RR - you are right about also mentioning vibrations as a source for cracking insulation.
GRD - I also have the impression that it is most often the stator causing failure to the charging system and not the regulator or the battery. I wonder if there is anyone who has collected statistical information about this?
And there is another mystery related to fried stators that I would like to hear more about from members who may have experienced this:
Elsewhere on this forum it has been mentioned that Honda claims that a failing stator can actually ignite gasses in the cranc case with consequent valve cover gasket blow out. I'm quite certain that a stator with cracked insulation can produce a lot of intermittent shorts before it fries down completely and thereby behave like a spark plug on the gasses inside the engine. But to actually start an explosion there would have to be sufficient oxygen. Anybody who has knowledge about this here ? Then please join in.
Cheers ... Fred
900RR - you are right about also mentioning vibrations as a source for cracking insulation.
GRD - I also have the impression that it is most often the stator causing failure to the charging system and not the regulator or the battery. I wonder if there is anyone who has collected statistical information about this?
And there is another mystery related to fried stators that I would like to hear more about from members who may have experienced this:
Elsewhere on this forum it has been mentioned that Honda claims that a failing stator can actually ignite gasses in the cranc case with consequent valve cover gasket blow out. I'm quite certain that a stator with cracked insulation can produce a lot of intermittent shorts before it fries down completely and thereby behave like a spark plug on the gasses inside the engine. But to actually start an explosion there would have to be sufficient oxygen. Anybody who has knowledge about this here ? Then please join in.
Cheers ... Fred
First. The stator fault is well known to Honda. Honda have issued an 'extended warranty' on this item (but NOT a recall). If yours fails and you are within certain VIN numbers, this will be replaced FOC (given certain conditions). More, this is gauranteed for six years(!) and applies even if you are not the original owner. Honda will also re-imburse you if you have had to pay for replacements. (Very magnanimous).
The gasket blow-out problem is something I am trying to figure out. The owners who have suffered this have been told by Honda that it is the faulty stator that ignites gasses within the crankcase and then have their stator replaced. This 'does' seem to solve the problem... So, whatever is actually causing this 'ignition of crankcase gases' is solved once you take your bike into a dealers for the stator change. I STRONGLY suspect that something else causes the blow-out, but that the dealer fixes that at the same time.
To add to all that has been said in this, an other threads on this topic...
The coils in a permanent magnet alternator generate energy when a magnet in the rotor passes the steel core of each winding. this causes a flux in the steel core whose energy excites the copper windings wrapped tightly around the core. There is no other source of energy. To generate 'sparks' that could 'possibly' ignite engine oil would need the kind of eht generated by ignition coils, not the kind of low voltage energy developed within a stator coil.
Whatever causes the gasket blow-out it is a potentially life threatening occurance. A cam box spewing high pressure oil has the potential to coat a rear tyre in seconds.
I am doing a lot of delving on this one, Honda are issuing NO information on this whatsoever.
The gasket blow-out problem is something I am trying to figure out. The owners who have suffered this have been told by Honda that it is the faulty stator that ignites gasses within the crankcase and then have their stator replaced. This 'does' seem to solve the problem... So, whatever is actually causing this 'ignition of crankcase gases' is solved once you take your bike into a dealers for the stator change. I STRONGLY suspect that something else causes the blow-out, but that the dealer fixes that at the same time.
To add to all that has been said in this, an other threads on this topic...
The coils in a permanent magnet alternator generate energy when a magnet in the rotor passes the steel core of each winding. this causes a flux in the steel core whose energy excites the copper windings wrapped tightly around the core. There is no other source of energy. To generate 'sparks' that could 'possibly' ignite engine oil would need the kind of eht generated by ignition coils, not the kind of low voltage energy developed within a stator coil.
Whatever causes the gasket blow-out it is a potentially life threatening occurance. A cam box spewing high pressure oil has the potential to coat a rear tyre in seconds.
I am doing a lot of delving on this one, Honda are issuing NO information on this whatsoever.
jdugen - when insulation layers fails and eventually allows two parts of the cobber wires to come sufficiently close to each other, a low voltage spark (an electric arc) will be created. In free air arround 2000 Volt per mm is required, so at e.g. 0.01 mm only 20 Volt is needed to start a spark.
This should be sufficient to start a fire inside the cranck case if the right mixture of hydro-carbons and oxygen is present. If this spark is not enough, then when the wires actually tuches each other and creates a real short, molten cobber at high temperatures should be able to do it.
This should be sufficient to start a fire inside the cranck case if the right mixture of hydro-carbons and oxygen is present. If this spark is not enough, then when the wires actually tuches each other and creates a real short, molten cobber at high temperatures should be able to do it.
A shorting coil in the stator is reducing its energy output, not multyplyimg it to the levels that will ignite engine oil. Refer back to Bladeracers post, he (as have I) has seen engines swilling in UNBURNT petrol, they dont seem to self imolate... No matter how you look at this, there is no way that a stator coil can be responsible for ingniting an explosion big enough to blow out a firmly clamped gasket.
Further. There is a documented case where the (aleged) abherant coil is pictured. One of the windings is, indeed browned, not burnt to a frazzle (which I have seen) and certainly not melted.
The pulses of energy imparted to a stator coil can, in no way, generate the energy needed to create sparks of sufficient intensity to set anything alight. Take a look at a lighter.... highly combustible gas in close proximity to a fierce spark, that can take two or three goes to cause ignition, and thats the perfect condition for ignition.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe the flux generated within a Honda alternator is so intense that it can ignite the gases within a crankcase... Er, isn't that, sort of, playing with fire?
In actual fact, the alternators fitted to most all Hondas are so piss weak they cant even keep the bike running when they fail, let alone light up engine oil!
Further. There is a documented case where the (aleged) abherant coil is pictured. One of the windings is, indeed browned, not burnt to a frazzle (which I have seen) and certainly not melted.
The pulses of energy imparted to a stator coil can, in no way, generate the energy needed to create sparks of sufficient intensity to set anything alight. Take a look at a lighter.... highly combustible gas in close proximity to a fierce spark, that can take two or three goes to cause ignition, and thats the perfect condition for ignition.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe the flux generated within a Honda alternator is so intense that it can ignite the gases within a crankcase... Er, isn't that, sort of, playing with fire?
In actual fact, the alternators fitted to most all Hondas are so piss weak they cant even keep the bike running when they fail, let alone light up engine oil!
The energy delivered by the generator under normal conditions is normally hundreds- or maybee thousandfolds larger than what is delivered in the sparks at the spark plugs. During failure inside the stator this level of energy can suddenly be dissipated inside the stator itself, rather than outside. That is the energy which eventually fries down the stator. Starting a fire may be done by even a very tiny spark or by burning insulation material. Hence the possibility of igniting a fire is obviously present.
Whan puzzels me, and what made me write the question in my former post is if and how the gas inside the cranck case can come to a proper mix ratio for burning?
I would expect the gas pressure inside the cranck case to be slightly above ambient pressure due to burnt blow by gasses passing piston rings and this blow by gas being vented out towards the air cleaner housing via the valve compartment.
How should oxygen in sufficient amounts come into the cranck case under these conditions? Anybody here with an answer to that?
... Fred
Whan puzzels me, and what made me write the question in my former post is if and how the gas inside the cranck case can come to a proper mix ratio for burning?
I would expect the gas pressure inside the cranck case to be slightly above ambient pressure due to burnt blow by gasses passing piston rings and this blow by gas being vented out towards the air cleaner housing via the valve compartment.
How should oxygen in sufficient amounts come into the cranck case under these conditions? Anybody here with an answer to that?
... FredFirst. The maximum amount of energy generated by an alternator is rarely more than 500watts, the AC voltage can reach up to 90 AC volts at high RPM and this, 'might' just be enough to create a condition where a spark 'might' occur.
You are more on the money when you ask where on earth the conditions for EXPLOSIVE ignition can take place. Hot engine oil alone cannot create this condition, any combustion gases passing the rings will be mostely inert CO1, the breathers work to create a slight vacuum in the crankcase rather than feeding fresh air. So where can the conditions for combustion be found?
It is obvious that the stator has nothing whatsoever to do with the gasket blow out, looks like Honda are lying again......
You are more on the money when you ask where on earth the conditions for EXPLOSIVE ignition can take place. Hot engine oil alone cannot create this condition, any combustion gases passing the rings will be mostely inert CO1, the breathers work to create a slight vacuum in the crankcase rather than feeding fresh air. So where can the conditions for combustion be found?
It is obvious that the stator has nothing whatsoever to do with the gasket blow out, looks like Honda are lying again......
I am getting 60 vac from the stator at 6,000 rpms between all combinations. The stator does have continuity between each phase and ground. Getting 12.4 volts from r/r to battery. Is it safe to say I need a stator? i have replaced the r/r. 1997 CBR 600. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!!
No - I'm not kidding - at least not in this particular case. I think we have got the correct explanation or should we say half of it.
Anyways - it is the technical stuff that interests me, because if we can come to the right explanation, we can also begin to take better precautions, so bladeracer - what do you say about my Sherlock Holmes like speculations?
... Fred
Anyways - it is the technical stuff that interests me, because if we can come to the right explanation, we can also begin to take better precautions, so bladeracer - what do you say about my Sherlock Holmes like speculations?
... Fred
I'd bet the biggest problem at initial failure to be the dreaded 'ring of fire' situation. This would be when the windings short and actually burn quickly in a massive flare up thats carried around the windings for a while due to conditions being right for it to happen.
This brief ignition coupled with the oil and fumes in the crankcase will cause a sudden positive pressure within the crankcase that spreads rapidly through it looking for a avenue of escape.
I would have thought the breather might be able to handle it, but again I'm sure Honda have duplicated this scenario and found quite a few variances to what actually takes place.
This brief ignition coupled with the oil and fumes in the crankcase will cause a sudden positive pressure within the crankcase that spreads rapidly through it looking for a avenue of escape.
I would have thought the breather might be able to handle it, but again I'm sure Honda have duplicated this scenario and found quite a few variances to what actually takes place.
Well - the electrical stuff is really my domain - but you don't have to take my word for it. I'm sure you have at some point tried - by accident probably - to create a 12 Volt short between some wires on your car or mc and seen for yourself the beautifull sparks. That is exactly what will happen inside the stator when insulation is failing and temperature variations and vibrations causes temporary shorts.
If this happens at a time where there is an appropriate mixture of oil droplets and oxygen - then BUM.
If this happens at a time where there is an appropriate mixture of oil droplets and oxygen - then BUM.
The sparks you get from shorting two wires together are battery current... 13 Volts at about 14 Amps, oh yes, sparks garanteed! The energy in a stator coil is totally dependant on the flux of magnet and core, at low engine revs, virtually nothing.
So. Not only do these alternators regularly fail, I am now to believe that they set off explosions in the engine as well... And still we buy these things?
But, rather than continue with these musings, and on the uderstanding that I am not convinced, I'll let things lie until something definitive comes along.
So. Not only do these alternators regularly fail, I am now to believe that they set off explosions in the engine as well... And still we buy these things?
But, rather than continue with these musings, and on the uderstanding that I am not convinced, I'll let things lie until something definitive comes along.
I have written this Alternator Tutorial Article where I explain how an alternator works, how it fails and how to debug it.
The article is not 100% complete (still needs pics, drawings and more details), but many essential details are finished and probably worth reading if you need to learn more.
Happy New Year ... Fred
The article is not 100% complete (still needs pics, drawings and more details), but many essential details are finished and probably worth reading if you need to learn more.
Happy New Year ... Fred
GRD - you are right in pointing out low rews and trafic lights as risky situations for the stator, as this is when the voltage is low and the current and temperatures are high.
A fan override that keeps the fan running e.g. at traffic lights (or just slightly elevated engine temperature) is an interesting idea.
... Fred
A fan override that keeps the fan running e.g. at traffic lights (or just slightly elevated engine temperature) is an interesting idea.
... Fred-
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