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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
The bike should start even if the cam markings are a little off, mine did the first time I noticed the problem (4-5 years ago) when I had to replace my 2 burnt valves also. They would only align perfectly when I was aligned with the T and not the I. She fired up first time.....so I wouldn't be worried it won't fire because she will in that state. The only reason I wanted it right was because of pre ignition timing. If for any reason at all the cam markings are off when timed correctly with the crank I.e before the T and on the I and the bottom crank line lined up aswell, what would happen in my eyes is that it would fire the bike a tad bit later than it should be, I say a tad......if just means the piston moves that little bit more closer before ignition occurs rather than as its coming up to TDC it pre ignites sooner causing less stress on the motor, sooner is better than later. The reason I say this is because of the exhaust cam pickup, its what speaks to the sensors and sends this information back to the ecu to fire when it thinks it should do, firing earlier = better engine ....firing later due to where the exhaust cam pickup is could be firing later =piston knocking.....noisier engine.

Don't get me wrong,like I said earlier it will still run without much difference, in my findings it does make for a much quieter motor when everything is all lined up perfectly and will idle so much better when everything is in sync.

I'm by no means a mechanic and everything I have learned has been trial and error,fault finding....having the bike for a fair while (6 years) and delving into the engine more than once to have noticed a difference in the engine noise, the idling and the difference in how it feels now compared to the first time I did the engine rebuild has made a massive difference in my eyes. It used to idle like a bag of spanners, noisy engine....well not like a bag of spanners but you get my drift, the noise every blade 954 will tell you. These are noisy engines, but now its just night and day difference. Idles great, is alot quieter and smoother and the exhaust note on tickover seems very happy indeed.

I'll see if I can find a video on how it sounded before I did the work to now so you can make your own mind up.
 

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The bike should start even if the cam markings are a little off, mine did the first time I noticed the problem (4-5 years ago) when I had to replace my 2 burnt valves also. They would only align perfectly when I was aligned with the T and not the I. She fired up first time.....so I wouldn't be worried it won't fire because she will in that state. The only reason I wanted it right was because of pre ignition timing. If for any reason at all the cam markings are off when timed correctly with the crank I.e before the T and on the I and the bottom crank line lined up aswell, what would happen in my eyes is that it would fire the bike a tad bit later than it should be, I say a tad......if just means the piston moves that little bit more closer before ignition occurs rather than as its coming up to TDC it pre ignites sooner causing less stress on the motor, sooner is better than later. The reason I say this is because of the exhaust cam pickup, its what speaks to the sensors and sends this information back to the ecu to fire when it thinks it should do, firing earlier = better engine ....firing later due to where the exhaust cam pickup is could be firing later =piston knocking.....noisier engine.

Don't get me wrong,like I said earlier it will still run without much difference, in my findings it does make for a much quieter motor when everything is all lined up perfectly and will idle so much better when everything is in sync.

I'm by no means a mechanic and everything I have learned has been trial and error,fault finding....having the bike for a fair while (6 years) and delving into the engine more than once to have noticed a difference in the engine noise, the idling and the difference in how it feels now compared to the first time I did the engine rebuild has made a massive difference in my eyes. It used to idle like a bag of spanners, noisy engine....well not like a bag of spanners but you get my drift, the noise every blade 954 will tell you. These are noisy engines, but now its just night and day difference. Idles great, is alot quieter and smoother and the exhaust note on tickover seems very happy indeed.

I'll see if I can find a video on how it sounded before I did the work to now so you can make your own mind up.
Thanks for the info and hopefully it will fire. I’ll let you know the results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
Before the rebuild and before the new cam chain install...listen to how noisy the engine was when the cams were not aligned!


After the rebuild with a new cam chain installed and cams aligned perfectly.


In my eyes it's night and day difference but I'll let you guys decide.
 

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Before the rebuild and before the new cam chain install...listen to how noisy the engine was when the cams were not aligned!


After the rebuild with a new cam chain installed and cams aligned perfectly.


In my eyes it's night and day difference but I'll let you guys decide.
Before the rebuild and before the new cam chain install...listen to how noisy the engine was when the cams were not aligned!


After the rebuild with a new cam chain installed and cams aligned perfectly.


In my eyes it's night and day difference but I'll let you guys decide.
Dave - Finished installing the engine with the air box and gas tank today. I was able to get the bike to start first with some starting fluid and then it started on it's own. Still have other issues to deal with but met this major milestone.
 

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Awesome stuff mate glad to hear it
Dave - I learned that I have another problem with the bike. When I first connected the fuel line from the gas tank and tried starting the bike it didn't fire. I gave the bike a shot of starting fluid and it ran briefly. Gave it another shot and it started and continued to run. After letting the bike run about 15 minutes I turned it off and checked every 5 to 10 minutes for several times to see if it would start and it did, started right up. So then I decided to see if it would start at lengthened intervals, 15, then 30 and 60 minutes and it started. Decided to wait 2 hours and it did not start. Used some starting fluid and it started again. Shut it down and it restarted right away. My present thoughts are that the initial fuel pressure isn't adequate to deliver gasoline to the injectors but with the starting fluid and the engine running this causes the fuel to flow. So I suspected two areas of potential problems, the manifold pressure that feeds the fuel pressure regulator and the fuel pump itself. I hooked up a vacuum gauge to check the manifold pressure and found 200 mm of Hg with the specification being between 150 and 250 so this should rule out the manifold vacuum. Just ordered a pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure from the fuel pump. I'm thinking I may have low fuel pump pressure preventing an initial adequate flow of fuel to the injectors. If the fuel pump pressure measures according to spec I will suspect the fuel pressure regulator. Just a theory and suspect this hasn't been your experience but thought I'd run it by you to see if you or anyone you know may have had a similar experience.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Next time you get the bike started I'd pull the pipe on the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line and see if there's fuel coming out of it, if there's none then I'd be having a look at the actual fuel pump and checking it's condition. Considering the bikes done 40,000 miles you say but then noticed 70,000 miles when turning it on I'd be replacing the fuel pump and fuel filter as a whole unit. Fuel pumps do degrade over time and give out less fuel than they were designed for and that filter is most certainly due a replacing anyways.

Now even though my fuel pump worked it was sounding a little louder the longer I had the bike.making the gurgling sound even though there was plenty of fuel in the tank.god know if it was feeding me enough fuel as I never tested the fuel flow bench rest. I just replaced the whole lot with an aftermarket kit that had everything I needed for £100 all in for peace if mind.

it's a bit strange that the bike only starts with starter fluid and not start on its own. Now after the initial starter fluid you say the bike actuals stays started and you've had it running for 15 minutes with no hiccups....its only when you leave it for 2 hours it struggled to start hmmm.

I would suggest replacing the filter and pump as a whole unit just because your having to squirt starter fluid into the throttlebodies there's obviously a problem somewhere. Your fuel line isn't kinked at all is it when your lifting the tank up. I would just check that first and I would even double check the fuel pump. Take the fuel pump out and check for any crap that could be causing a blockage. A simple check before you make the decision.

I just find it odd how the bike stayed started after the initial starter fluid. That shows there's no blockage which then leads me to believe its the actual fuel pump prime problem.

The kit I purchased was this 1


Its a plug and play system.i never cut the wires and installed the plug that came with the kit,It was a direct replacement so everything installed fine.
 

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Next time you get the bike started I'd pull the pipe on the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line and see if there's fuel coming out of it, if there's none then I'd be having a look at the actual fuel pump and checking it's condition. Considering the bikes done 40,000 miles you say but then noticed 70,000 miles when turning it on I'd be replacing the fuel pump and fuel filter as a whole unit. Fuel pumps do degrade over time and give out less fuel than they were designed for and that filter is most certainly due a replacing anyways.

Now even though my fuel pump worked it was sounding a little louder the longer I had the bike.making the gurgling sound even though there was plenty of fuel in the tank.god know if it was feeding me enough fuel as I never tested the fuel flow bench rest. I just replaced the whole lot with an aftermarket kit that had everything I needed for £100 all in for peace if mind.

it's a bit strange that the bike only starts with starter fluid and not start on its own. Now after the initial starter fluid you say the bike actuals stays started and you've had it running for 15 minutes with no hiccups....its only when you leave it for 2 hours it struggled to start hmmm.

I would suggest replacing the filter and pump as a whole unit just because your having to squirt starter fluid into the throttlebodies there's obviously a problem somewhere. Your fuel line isn't kinked at all is it when your lifting the tank up. I would just check that first and I would even double check the fuel pump. Take the fuel pump out and check for any crap that could be causing a blockage. A simple check before you make the decision.

I just find it odd how the bike stayed started after the initial starter fluid. That shows there's no blockage which then leads me to believe its the actual fuel pump prime problem.

The kit I purchased was this 1


Its a plug and play system.i never cut the wires and installed the plug that came with the kit,It was a direct replacement so everything installed fine.
Thanks for all the info and advice. Yes, once it starts with the starting fluid I was able to restart it after waiting so started at 1:00 with fluid the immediately started on its own. Then started on its own at 1:15, 1:45 and 2:45 but not at 4:45. So my thought is after it starts pressure builds up and lasts until sometime between the one and two hour time frame. When it is running at idle the specified pressure should be 55 psi. When I receive the pressure gauge I’m going to record the pressures while I repeat the same time interval tests. I’m expecting a low initial pressure when I try to start without starting fluid, a higher pressure when starting with starting fluid then decreasing readings as the time interval increases. Not certain but I suspect the fuel pump system has a check valve to prevent fuel from flowing back into the tank thus maintaining the pressure on the fuel rail. So if the check valve is leaking it could be the culprit. The other potential culprit is the fuel pressure regulator. Not sure how it is designed to work but it seems in order to keep the flow adequate at higher rpms it may require the pressure to increase. At higher rpms the manifold vacuum pressure is greater. It could be that the manifold vacuum pressure while initially cranking the engine is not enough to properly activate the pressure regulator. My bet of these two is the fuel pump. Thanks for the help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Yes I would agree the fuel pump could very well be the culprit but you do really need to check if the regulator is dripping fuel from the vent pipe once it has started just to rule that out. For the sake of buying the tool necessary to test for pressures I would of just bit the bullet and purchased the kit I shared in the link as the fuel pump and filter do have enough miles to warrant a replacement...if not now then in the near future to get everything running like it should. I would think about doing this as a matter of caution so you have faith the fuel pump is delivering the right amount of fuel. Keep us posted on the outcome bud.
 

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Yes I would agree the fuel pump could very well be the culprit but you do really need to check if the regulator is dripping fuel from the vent pipe once it has started just to rule that out. For the sake of buying the tool necessary to test for pressures I would of just bit the bullet and purchased the kit I shared in the link as the fuel pump and filter do have enough miles to warrant a replacement...if not now then in the near future to get everything running like it should. I would think about doing this as a matter of caution so you have faith the fuel pump is delivering the right amount of fuel. Keep us posted on the outcome bud.
Dave- Yes, I suspect I’ll need the kit that you recommended so thank you for posting the link. Take care.
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
No problem mate, like I said it's a direct replacement on the electrical plug so no need to cut and splice the wires. The kit comes with the few pickup gauzes aswell. I used the small rectangular one and just folded the edges. It's a squeeze but it does go in fine.the standard one is squared so goes in easier. Hope that helps and good luck.
 

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I have placed this item on my Amazon wish list after confirming it is the identical kit as the one listed on eBay. My fuel pressure gauge is coming tomorrow so on Saturday I should be in position to run the pressure tests. Again, appreciate the feedback. I'll let you know the results of the tests.
 

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No problem mate, like I said it's a direct replacement on the electrical plug so no need to cut and splice the wires. The kit comes with the few pickup gauzes aswell. I used the small rectangular one and just folded the edges. It's a squeeze but it does go in fine.the standard one is squared so goes in easier. Hope that helps and good luck.
Dave- Received the pressure gauge today so hopefully run the pressure test tomorrow. Took your advice, disconnected the manifold vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator and cycled the pump several times. No gas leaked from the fuel pressure regulator but I'll re-run the test once I can confirm there is pressure on the fuel rail after starting the engine tomorrow.
 

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No problem mate, like I said it's a direct replacement on the electrical plug so no need to cut and splice the wires. The kit comes with the few pickup gauzes aswell. I used the small rectangular one and just folded the edges. It's a squeeze but it does go in fine.the standard one is squared so goes in easier. Hope that helps and good luck.
Dave - So I ran some pressure tests this morning. As is when I crank the engine to attempt a start the max pressure is 48 psi not the specified 55 psi. In addition, when I stop cranking the pressure drops to 40 psi fairly quickly and continues on down to 20 psi after about 5 minutes. If I clamp close the return the line from the pressure regulator, start the engine with starter fluid the pressure rises to above 60 psi. Then when I shut down the engine the pressure appears to hold. If it didn't hold then I would suspect a leaky injector or the check valve coming from the fuel pump. As a result, I'm suspecting the fuel pressure regulator is not closing and letting fuel leak back into the tank. I pulled the manifold pressure line from the pressure regulator and it is not leaking so the diaphragm is intact. Once the engine started with the return line clamped on it's own without starting fluid but not in subsequent tries, always needed starting fluid so I may still have a number of issue but my present thinking is to replace the fuel regular and go from there to see what happens. I may need to replace the fuel pump but taking it a step at a time. Your thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
A little out of my depth when it comes to things like this, as I mentioned I decided to change everything on the fuel side as a whole even though my original parts where fine,barring the fuel pump sounding loader and gurgling at times. I'm still on the original fuel pressure regulator.its never been changed since new even when the other guy had it, I know this because he has spread sheets of maintenance work his mechanic did. If it was me I would replace the fuel pump and filter first because 1 its a cheaper option considering the cost of a fuel pressure regulator which isn't cheap at all. If it was me I'd be choosing this route.i doubt the regulator would be stopping it from firing altogether without starter fluid. My thoughts are still on the fuel pump and filter, I reckon as you get things fired up with the starter fluid and its running and stays running, thats telling me that once you turn it off say a few hours it now struggles to fire again. Change the pump and filter and see how it is because I put money on it there's some sort of blockage....I say this because starter fluid gets things moving and pressure builds but then once everything's settled after a few hours of not running your back to square 1 again.forgive me if I'm blabbing but that's what I'd do.

It may not be the answer you wanted but it's what I would do first.
 

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Dave-Okay on the advice, I understand. Do you know how many psi a new fuel pump is suppose to be putting out without the regulator? A potential flaw in my thinking is that the fuel regulator should totally close. If this is not the case then attention turns towards the fuel pump. I'll do some checking around and see if I can find a spec on a new fuel pump. If it puts out 100 psi for example, the fuel pressure regulator would not need to close. It could pass fuel and still meet the 55psi specification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
My understanding Is this.....if it was the fuel pressure regulator at fault it would still start, there would be 3 faults occurring on showing a faulty regulator.

Misfires, decrease in power and poor fuel economy, fuel leaks I.e the diaphragm through vent pipe and also black smoke from exhaust due to running rich. Either way with these faults of a fuel pressure regulator it would / should still start.

Fuel pressure at specified idle speed (50 psi (3.5 bar)
Manifold absolute pressure at idle (150 to 250mmhg
Minimum fuel flow rate (188 cc every 10 seconds)

This Is the info I have in the Haynes.
 

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My understanding Is this.....if it was the fuel pressure regulator at fault it would still start, there would be 3 faults occurring on showing a faulty regulator.

Misfires, decrease in power and poor fuel economy, fuel leaks I.e the diaphragm through vent pipe and also black smoke from exhaust due to running rich. Either way with these faults of a fuel pressure regulator it would / should still start.

Fuel pressure at specified idle speed (50 psi (3.5 bar)
Manifold absolute pressure at idle (150 to 250mmhg
Minimum fuel flow rate (188 cc every 10 seconds)

This Is the info I have in the Haynes.
Dave- I ordered the fuel pump kit, as you mentioned with all the miles and age of the bike it won’t be a waste of money. I’ll see if there is a difference when I finish installing it. Thanks for the info and time you took to respond.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
Hey any time buddy, like I say the electrical connector will fit your original harness plug. There's no need to cut and attach the supplied plug as there identical. Only thing I will say when connecting them together is just pull the plastic locking tab up so it does lock fully. You'll see what I mean when you see it. Also as mentioned there's a fair few gauges in the kit. Just use the small rectangular one and fold in the corners and you should be golden. It was my first time changing the fuel pump and attaching everything together and it went well first time.if its your first time to just take a few pics so you know what goes where. You will find the fuel pump is alot quieter too.

Look forward to hearing your results.
 

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Hey any time buddy, like I say the electrical connector will fit your original harness plug. There's no need to cut and attach the supplied plug as there identical. Only thing I will say when connecting them together is just pull the plastic locking tab up so it does lock fully. You'll see what I mean when you see it. Also as mentioned there's a fair few gauges in the kit. Just use the small rectangular one and fold in the corners and you should be golden. It was my first time changing the fuel pump and attaching everything together and it went well first time.if its your first time to just take a few pics so you know what goes where. You will find the fuel pump is alot quieter too.

Look forward to hearing your results.
Thanks Dave, I’ll let you know when I get it plus will take it slow and ask for advice if I get stuck.
 
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