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Discussion Starter #1
How much of the blame should George Bush and his administration take for the current meltdown of the financial markets? Would this crash have happened regardless? It's not like this situation has been impossible to forecast but it does appear that plenty of heads were hidden deep in the sand while the cracks were forming.. On a positive note oil is through the floor.
 

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How much of the blame should George Bush and his administration take for the current meltdown of the financial markets? Would this crash have happened regardless? It's not like this situation has been impossible to forecast but it does appear that plenty of heads were hidden deep in the sand while the cracks were forming.. On a positive note oil is through the floor.
While it's fair to say that the markets are cyclical (there have been many crashes over the years), this one wouldn't be quite so bad for the US if it's government (Bush) wasn't spending so much money fighting such a protracted war in Iraq.

The knock-on effect currently being felt around the world, however, is mainly due to the natural entanglement of the so-called free world markets and the fact that all world leaders desperately tried to prolong the inevitable. It's a little like forest fires. Nobody likes them but they do have a part to play. Even though many would like to blame him for everything, he isn't the sole reason for the economic slowdown. He didn't help matters, but the strategies that brought this slowdown were set in motion well before he got into power.
 

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I believe that amoral pile of cretins (Bush and his Masters) has caused an unbounded proliferation of previously existing but less pervasive plundering behaviours. :rant:

So my vote is YES.

And they will do more global damage before their time is up.

I may eventually develop a strong opinion on this issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
But the scope of this meltdown is something new, the real estate crash and the rampant and reckless lending practices have led the US and the rest of the world into some new depths of financial distress. I'm not convinced we are anywhere near the end of this and much of it may have been avoided if measures were taken early. It was simply bad economic management.
 

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The problems are two-fold. First, everybody in business recognises the need to open up new markets in which to sell their products. As markets mature, so sales slow, peak and plato. Share prices then do the same - a business whose share price remains static isn't making investors any money, so they sell and the share price drops. Now the business is losing money.

There aren't that many new (or developing) markets left today. China, Vietnam, India... The rest just aren't there yet. They're going to take longer to become of value (if ever in some cases). In the meantime, business still needs to keep investors happy.

Secondly, where financial institutions are concerned, there's only so much money they can earn an investor before the investor starts to pay big bucks in tax and nobody what's to do that. So, for this reason and the fact the investors want to earn ever-more serious amounts of money, they have to come up with even more complicated strategies in order for their products to work.

The more complex and potentially rewarding the product is, the bigger the risk. Previously, that wasn't a problem since it was the investor that lost out not the bank - never the bank in fact. They didn't even suffer the bane of nearly all small to midsize business - cash flow. When a deal when bad, they could borrow from each other at a rate that would make all of us cry. And why not. The interest banks charge the rest of us mere mortals normally keeps them well in profit and capable of paying back the loans without raising a sweat. However, it only takes one big financial institution to collapse for the rest to realise that absolutely every loan comes with a risk, that they haven't all been playing by the rules and that they themselves are now at risk.

The banks then withhold loans (have you seen how difficult it is to get a mortgage lately?) even from themselves and, like dominos, the weak beginning to fall. Only the weak might well not be the small. You've heard the expression, "The bigger they are the harder they fall." Now you'll get a chance to see it. When they fall they do so owing billions of dollars to other forms of business. Yep, this is going to be one hell of a forest fire all right.

But all the above notwithstanding, it isn't actually Bush's fault (God, I really hate the fact that I'm defending him), he just made an already bad situation much worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You have to feel for people who had planned to retire, imagine how much net worth has been erased between real estate and the stock market recently.
 

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It's as much Bush's fault as Katrina was his fault. Could he personally have done more? Absolutely, but there are many, many people below him to spread blame around. In the sense that he is the Captain of the ship, he is ultimately responsible for what occurs, good and bad.
I'm sure many financial people saw this coming and just hoped it would go away before it hit.
Question is now, who pays??? Are bailouts (with taxpayer money) the proper way to handle this???
 

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meltdown? u r lucky.

i'm living in a country where my generation and generations before are living through hard financial and economic times all their (our) lifes.

don't get me started about prices and salaries here. and now world is going through "economic and financial meltdown". i don't know how much more financies can melt down in croatia. average annual income is 9.500 us dollars (that is per year). and let's say price of 1 gallon of petrol is now about 8.5 us dollars. last year i payed for my blade (i bought new one) about 21.000 us dollars with tax. and they gave me discount. 6 years ago i bought my car (skoda octavia) for about 40.000 us dollars. that car would be about 15.000 dollars in us. now i'm preparing to take a loan or bank credit to buy a house. average price of the house in my town is about 100.000 euros which is about 170.000 us dollars.

so you know nothing about economical melt down :smilebig:
 

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Why don't you come to Canada low-rider? Everyone else does. You don't even have to do it the proper way. That's way too much trouble. Just come on over, claim refuge status and it's all yours. Really that simple. Free housing, medical, prescriptions monthly income and you name it. Then if you have a trade and I'm sure you do, work under the table. Oh and don't forget the rest of your family too!
New Canadians will receive more income than Veterans who fought for this Country.
I am a little bitter about this arrangment but hey, I'd love to see good productive people over here such as yourself. Plus you have a Blade!
Sorry for side stepping this thread a bit.
 

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Why don't you come to Canada low-rider? Everyone else does. You don't even have to do it the proper way. That's way too much trouble. Just come on over, claim refuge status and it's all yours. Really that simple. Free housing, medical, prescriptions monthly income and you name it. Then if you have a trade and I'm sure you do, work under the table. Oh and don't forget the rest of your family too!
New Canadians will receive more income than Veterans who fought for this Country.
I am a little bitter about this arrangment but hey, I'd love to see good productive people over here such as yourself. Plus you have a Blade!
Sorry for side stepping this thread a bit.
hehehe i like Canada (at least in the photos) :D

but i wouldn't like to use system like that and make real Canadians angry. but maybe if i marry some canadian girl it will be legal and clean hehe

i have cousin in toronto but he is some kind of manager in one company and works second job (4 hours a day) in other. his wife also has a job as a software programmer. he has university degree from here and now is planing on quiting that second job and wants to go to some college there. my english is not so good so i hope i didn't write something wrong :D

but i'm not so brilliant as my cousin so Canada wouldn't have any use of me :)

comparing to others here i'm managing to do well because me and my father we have two companies but even with two companies it is hard life here. taxes are high, life expenses are high, police tickets are veeeery high ;)

when i hear that average annual income in us or canada is about 100.000 dollars (at least somebody told me that here) and prices in us and canada are lower for most of the things (like fuel, cars, bikes...) and prices for houses are about the same i wonder how people are living here at all.

do you think my blade is better then urs because it costs dobule then u pay in us or canada? :rotfl: i dont think so. the same bike but not the same price
 

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Yes, it is the fault of Bush, almost directly. He and his advisors have disdained regulation and applauded increases in rates of home ownership while ignoring the increasing risk-prone behavior in the financial sector. They've had ample opportunity to reign in this behavior, and plenty of warning signs to boot. However, Bush has pursued policy over reality since he took office (I could cite spectacular instances) and this is just one aspect of it. Unfettered capitalism is good, right? So the new American way is capitalism for the profits and socialism for the debts. By the way, I hope you really wanted to own AIG, because now you do.
 

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Every time there's one of these spectacular crashes, we all act like it's the first time. The fact is, American history is rife with examples of unfettered capitalism causing huge bubbles and crashes.

The reasons for this happening are no different, fundamentally, from the reasons for the tech crash of 2000/2001, or the massive corporate governance scandals a la Enron which caused another major correction.

There are people looking for opportunities to make money fast. When they find an opportunity, they exploit it. Eventually, they over-exploit the opportunity and try to come up with more ways to squeeze money out of it. As they get more and more inventive at "creating value", the actual value of their enterprises diverges further and further from the fundamental value, which never changed in the first place. Eventually, reality sets in.

In most places, there are regulations against rampant greed, so that when reality sets in, you get a correction. In America, with it's unbridled optimism, people really do believe that "trees grow to the sky", and take a dim view of regulatory efforts to slow down growth and keep things realistic. So whereas most economies experience a business cycle, America experiences booms and busts.

From the beginning of its economy, Americans have been looking for some kind of economic fountain of youth, some kind of Eldorado, a source of limitless wealth and opportunity. Fishing. Farming. Mining. Oil. Pharmaceuticals. Technology. Ethanol. Mortgages. The gold rush and its consequences are part of American mythology, and admit it or not, that mythology shapes the culture.

What's the next gold rush? I don't know, but whatever it is, it will have a spectacular rise, a spectacular fall, and we'll all look around saying "how did we let this happen?" "Should we have more regulation?" "We knew it was a shell game all along."

What's that saying about history repeating?

--- D
 

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For the first time in history, America went to war against a country that DID NOT ATTACK US!
G.W. Bush sent them there.
Korea? Vietnam? First Gulf War?

--- D

PS. Oh, I forgot, in September 1996, Bill Clinton launched 44 cruise missiles at various sites in Iraq. People forget this. He also said at that time "the United States was prepared to do so again if the Iraqi ruler "violates the United Nations prohibitions.""
 

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Korea? Vietnam? First Gulf War?

--- D

PS. Oh, I forgot, in September 1996, Bill Clinton launched 44 cruise missiles at various sites in Iraq. People forget this. He also said at that time "the United States was prepared to do so again if the Iraqi ruler "violates the United Nations prohibitions.""
Oh please, don't be retarded. In each one of those cases, the counrty its self was directly responsible for the actions that lead up to conflict. This was not the case with G.W.'s war. There was NO justification for his actions what-so-ever.
 

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Oh please, don't be retarded. In each one of those cases, the counrty its self was directly responsible for the actions that lead up to conflict. This was not the case with G.W.'s war. There was NO justification for his actions what-so-ever.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they weren't responsible. Just saying that they didn't attack the United States.

And my PS is just to the point that G.W. isn't the first or only American president to have attacked Iraq. Unfortunately the USA has a history of three successive Presidents that have attacked their country.

For what it's worth, I'm no supporter of G.W. I just think that, as much of a jackass as he is, he's only the latest in a long line.

--- D
 

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Oh please, don't be retarded. In each one of those cases, the counrty its self was directly responsible for the actions that lead up to conflict. This was not the case with G.W.'s war. There was NO justification for his actions what-so-ever.
REALLY? So a few airplanes flying into buildings dont ring a bell?:idunno: True the terrorists were not based out of Iraq but Iraq had connections to the terrorist network. THAT ALONE was a good enough reason. Reason #2 the Iraq people NEEDED us. We did a very good thing in Iraq and I think that we are getting close to a point where we can draw some troops back but it will be a LONG time before we can draw everyone back. Just like Germany, Korea, Japan...ect. Like it or not America is the worlds police. If we do not step in then who does? It bites us in the arse sometimes but I would rather have the USA do something than be like everyone else and sit on their arse and watch people die.
 

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Like it or not America is the worlds police.
I didn't get that memo. Last I heard, America was a sovereign nation just like all the others. A little bigger, a lot richer, but not possessing any greater authority in the affairs of other nations than, say, Holland.

I agree that if America doesn't step in, no one will. But let's not confuse that with the idea that America has the RIGHT to step in. Police are appointed, hired, and overseen by the people whom they police. The world didn't hire the USA to serve and protect them.

--- D
 

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I didn't get that memo. Last I heard, America was a sovereign nation just like all the others. A little bigger, a lot richer, but not possessing any greater authority in the affairs of other nations than, say, Holland.

I agree that if America doesn't step in, no one will. But let's not confuse that with the idea that America has the RIGHT to step in. Police are appointed, hired, and overseen by the people whom they police. The world didn't hire the USA to serve and protect them.

--- D
Wow man, dont take it so litterally. America is not the appointed world police but we do alot for the world LIKE police. Is that better? BTW I hope I am not offending anyone with my comments. Its Just OPINION. Thats it.
 

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Bush is just as much to blame as Pelosi, Obama, McCain, Clinton...... and the list goes on. Congress has encouraged and/or MANDATED bad loans for a while now. They have rewarded greed with bailouts. They have participated in the greed (find out how many had below market rates on loans from Countrywide). But Bush is the devil so rant on and let the rest of them continue dragging us into the sewer that is their home.
 
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