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hey guys, did a yet again beautiful track day today, until session 4, where I got wiped off the track by one of the national racers in corner 1 of the circuit on quite a high speed...
I believe he did not understand that its a track day, not a race day.
Bike smashed, knees and shoulders bruised... pretty upset all in all.
check it out and let me know what you think...

Yours
Dukester
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoTd9oDg3HI
 

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Glad to hear you are ok, but you were off the faster line being so far inside, the other guy was coming from the outside carrying more speed to hit the apex, thats racing. If you want to be on a track with racers that is what is going to happen, racers don't know how to go slow because you are off line, I don't mean to be a jerk about it but when you get faster and you are the one clipping the guy who is off line you will understand.
 

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Glad to hear you are ok, but you were off the faster line being so far inside, the other guy was coming from the outside carrying more speed to hit the apex, thats racing. If you want to be on a track with racers that is what is going to happen, racers don't know how to go slow because you are off line, I don't mean to be a jerk about it but when you get faster and you are the one clipping the guy who is off line you will understand.
I disagree totally.
It doesn't matter what speed you're doing or what line you're on, it's the _responsibility_ of the guy following you to pass you safely. It's a fundamental rule of motorcycle racing. If he's a racer he should understand that.
I was taken out on a race day by a guy that was reknown for riding through people. He was quite quick on an empty track but had zero regard for other riders, they basically didn't exist in his mind. He had the view that running into people is "just racing" as well.
 

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I disagree totally.
It doesn't matter what speed you're doing or what line you're on, it's the _responsibility_ of the guy following you to pass you safely. It's a fundamental rule of motorcycle racing. If he's a racer he should understand that.
I was taken out on a race day by a guy that was reknown for riding through people. He was quite quick on an empty track but had zero regard for other riders, they basically didn't exist in his mind. He had the view that running into people is "just racing" as well.
I hear your point about being responsible for passing someone safely but that is in a perfect world, sometimes you can't help being taken out,watch the end 5 times in a row like I did, if you see what I see he was so far inside when he got to the apex he was pretty much going straight across the track as the racer guy was already in the turn, thus clipping his front tire. When I went into expert from amateur and went into my first practice I was getting ripped on by guys who were way faster that me and after that session I got an earful from them because I was not expecting that, granted I rode completely different after that day just like this guy will. ....On the other side of that I was in a 22 lap race that was being sponsored by FIM, I was in 3rd place and all I wanted was to win a FIM trophy, I was all alone on the 11th lap when I started to lap a much slower group well I was going up a 90 degree turn that shoots up a long hill 3rd gear wide open leaned over, lapper to the outside of me, seemed to not be any problem I would just stay inside and go right past him, well no he cut right back inside and I t-boned his ass, I didn't do it because I wanted to or had no regard for him, I just wanted to go buy, so I disagree, it does matter how fast you are going and what line you are on.
 

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I hear your point about being responsible for passing someone safely but that is in a perfect world, sometimes you can't help being taken out,watch the end 5 times in a row like I did, if you see what I see he was so far inside when he got to the apex he was pretty much going straight across the track as the racer guy was already in the turn, thus clipping his front tire. When I went into expert from amateur and went into my first practice I was getting ripped on by guys who were way faster that me and after that session I got an earful from them because I was not expecting that, granted I rode completely different after that day just like this guy will. ....On the other side of that I was in a 22 lap race that was being sponsored by FIM, I was in 3rd place and all I wanted was to win a FIM trophy, I was all alone on the 11th lap when I started to lap a much slower group well I was going up a 90 degree turn that shoots up a long hill 3rd gear wide open leaned over, lapper to the outside of me, seemed to not be any problem I would just stay inside and go right past him, well no he cut right back inside and I t-boned his ass, I didn't do it because I wanted to or had no regard for him, I just wanted to go buy, so I disagree, it does matter how fast you are going and what line you are on.
Yes, **** does just happen sometimes.
Yes, people will do the dumbest things at the worst possible times.
Yes, it is possible to be taken out by somebody ahead of you despite your best efforts. I've even seen it done deliberately by national-class riders more than once because it was advantageous in the points score.
That doesn't make it any less your fault though when you are fully aware that the guy in front is a lot slower than you are. Anybody that you are legitimately racing with will be going at a speed much closer to your own so it should be obvious that there's a reason for a large speed difference. They may be less experienced and/or capable, they may have a problem with their machine or they've noticed oil on the circuit. He may be slowing down because a rider is lying across the track ahead of him. Whatever the reason, a slower rider is a warning that you need to take extra care.
And yes, I agree that Duke was a long way off line due to his very tight entry and was running out toward the edge of the track. It should have been even more obvious to an experienced racer approaching fast from behind.
This is a track day though, not a race day. When we do track days we racers are reminded throughout the day that we are on track with less experienced riders and it is our responsibility to look after them, and most importantly, it's up to us to make sure they end the day wanting to come again.
We occasionally have problems with riders on track days that get their kicks out of "bombing" past slower riders at the most inappropriate times. They're not fast enough to do it to experienced riders so they somehow determine that doing it to less capable riders makes them look faster themselves. It makes them look like dangerous dickheads so these riders are quickly pulled off the circuit and warned - before the other riders decide they've had enough of it and pack their bikes up.
 

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The real issue is lack of awareness where the other is. Obviously the rider to the outside had the position under breaking. Knowing he was on a faster line, you shouls have expected him to slice yer nose. If you knew he was right there. Transversly, The rider on the outside has an easier time of seeing the other bike once you start into the corner. And He should have known you where going to run wide into the apex from where you where coming into the corner. But as you said it was a track day, not a race day.

Final vote 50/50 fault.
 

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Yes, **** does just happen sometimes.
Yes, people will do the dumbest things at the worst possible times.
Yes, it is possible to be taken out by somebody ahead of you despite your best efforts. I've even seen it done deliberately by national-class riders more than once because it was advantageous in the points score.
That doesn't make it any less your fault though when you are fully aware that the guy in front is a lot slower than you are. Anybody that you are legitimately racing with will be going at a speed much closer to your own so it should be obvious that there's a reason for a large speed difference. They may be less experienced and/or capable, they may have a problem with their machine or they've noticed oil on the circuit. He may be slowing down because a rider is lying across the track ahead of him. Whatever the reason, a slower rider is a warning that you need to take extra care.
And yes, I agree that Duke was a long way off line due to his very tight entry and was running out toward the edge of the track. It should have been even more obvious to an experienced racer approaching fast from behind.
This is a track day though, not a race day. When we do track days we racers are reminded throughout the day that we are on track with less experienced riders and it is our responsibility to look after them, and most importantly, it's up to us to make sure they end the day wanting to come again.
We occasionally have problems with riders on track days that get their kicks out of "bombing" past slower riders at the most inappropriate times. They're not fast enough to do it to experienced riders so they somehow determine that doing it to less capable riders makes them look faster themselves. It makes them look like dangerous dickheads so these riders are quickly pulled off the circuit and warned - before the other riders decide they've had enough of it and pack their bikes up.
Fair enough, I am just glad that the track days I go to have sessions for licenced racers and seperate sessions for unlicenced racers, although sometimes like we have both pointed out sh*t happens no matter what.
 

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The real issue is lack of awareness where the other is. Obviously the rider to the outside had the position under breaking. Knowing he was on a faster line, you shouls have expected him to slice yer nose. If you knew he was right there. Transversly, The rider on the outside has an easier time of seeing the other bike once you start into the corner. And He should have known you where going to run wide into the apex from where you where coming into the corner. But as you said it was a track day, not a race day.

Final vote 50/50 fault.
Watching the fork compression it looks to me like Duke has closed the throttle and/or braked once he's realised the other guy is coming across him, which would have pushed him wider and probably resulted in the collision.
An experienced racer wouldn't have been balked by the other rider but such a thing is the expected result when passing non-racers. The road riders were baulked in the same way when the other racer came inside them into the previous right hander. I think Duke was in there fast enough to not have been in any trouble on his own or with the non-racers he'd just passed. The crash was entirely the result of an experienced racer overtaking a less-experienced road rider and baulking him.
The apex of a turn is where the speed difference is the greatest between two riders of different skill levels and it's also the point at which the less-experienced rider has fewer options. This makes it the worst place to be making such a close pass.
Between two road riders I'd call it 50/50 I think but with one being an experienced racer I can't.
 

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Fair enough, I am just glad that the track days I go to have sessions for licenced racers and seperate sessions for unlicenced racers, although sometimes like we have both pointed out sh*t happens no matter what.
Our track days are usually split into at least three groups and sometimes four.
Group 1 is for Licenced racers and fast road riders that have a lot of track days under their belt but aren't interested in actual competition. The only rule is for racers to make all due allowances for the safety of non-racers.
Group 2 is for riders that have done some track days before. Usually the only rule is no passing in turns.
Group 3 is for riders that are new to the track but do want to learn to ride fast. Usually restricted to passing on the straights only.
Group 4 would be for riders that just want to be able to see what the track is like and maybe wind their bikes out on the straights. Usually there'd be little if any passing allowed in this group and the riders would be released on track as wide apart as possible.
 

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Our track days are usually split into at least three groups and sometimes four.
Group 1 is for Licenced racers and fast road riders that have a lot of track days under their belt but aren't interested in actual competition. The only rule is for racers to make all due allowances for the safety of non-racers.
Group 2 is for riders that have done some track days before. Usually the only rule is no passing in turns.
Group 3 is for riders that are new to the track but do want to learn to ride fast. Usually restricted to passing on the straights only.
Group 4 would be for riders that just want to be able to see what the track is like and maybe wind their bikes out on the straights. Usually there'd be little if any passing allowed in this group and the riders would be released on track as wide apart as possible.
This is very similar to our track days, but they don't mix any road riders with licenced racers.In all groups even in the racer group there are control riders that make sure nobody does anything stupid like you pointed out buzzing past a slower guy just to make a point, anybody doing so gets the "meatball flag" and has to pull off, after the second time they are done for the day and can no longer ride.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Watching the fork compression it looks to me like Duke has closed the throttle and/or braked once he's realised the other guy is coming across him, which would have pushed him wider and probably resulted in the collision.
An experienced racer wouldn't have been balked by the other rider but such a thing is the expected result when passing non-racers. The road riders were baulked in the same way when the other racer came inside them into the previous right hander. I think Duke was in there fast enough to not have been in any trouble on his own or with the non-racers he'd just passed. The crash was entirely the result of an experienced racer overtaking a less-experienced road rider and baulking him.
The apex of a turn is where the speed difference is the greatest between two riders of different skill levels and it's also the point at which the less-experienced rider has fewer options. This makes it the worst place to be making such a close pass.
Between two road riders I'd call it 50/50 I think but with one being an experienced racer I can't.
Ok, guys just woke up and have read the heated discussion. Here my point of view.
a) It was the fast group, BUT it was NOT a racer group. There were 80% racers in there, but not all of them
b) still it is a track day and although we were having a quick pace, rules remain the same, keep distance (and officially its prohibited to overtake in corners)
referring now to the siuation:
i completely agree, I was coming in low in the corner and hooked the turn, the ONLY reason why I came in low was not to cut the two guys off who I just overtook on the striaght line (Speed on this straight approx 260km/h), bc we were on a track day and I was cautious about them.
The experienced racer behind me shud have seen that I will run wide, which was natural, therefore he should have taken me from the inside, NOT the outside...
bladeracer mentions that he reckons i was breaking, which did not happen, i was so focused on the apex i saw the yellow bike too late, otherwise I would have kept the throttle stable and hooked the turn more to cut the corner more and not to run wide, what happened, which you cant see is that some part of my bike got stuck in his bike and made my bike getting pulled up and it flipped over, throwing me off (1.5m airborne)...
thats my part to this.
I dont care whos fault it is, i could have entered the corner better, he could have taken me from inside... I am not professional, he is...
 

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bladeracer mentions that he reckons i was breaking, which did not happen, i was so focused on the apex i saw the yellow bike too late, otherwise I would have kept the throttle stable and hooked the turn more to cut the corner more and not to run wide, what happened, which you cant see is that some part of my bike got stuck in his bike and made my bike getting pulled up and it flipped over, throwing me off (1.5m airborne).
I'm only looking at the fork compression, I'm not suggesting you made any kind of mistake Duke. I think you were doing just fine and got screwed by somebody that should've known better.
The bikes getting hooked together and the rear one being thrown over the top is just the normal physics of your front tyre being clipped by his rear tyre coming across you.
 

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This is very similar to our track days, but they don't mix any road riders with licenced racers.
You must have much larger fields than us. We would rarely get enough racers to warrent setting aside a group just for them.
Racers get dedicated tuning days every month already where they're riding without having to worry about non-racers on track, and tuning days are much cheaper with more track time.
We would usually have some riders in among the slower group to catch any mistakes that might turn into something more serious during the day as speeds increase. And if somebody specifically wants a rider to follow them for a few laps to get some pointers that's no problem either.
 
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