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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello friends,

Okay a while back I started this thread below:-

http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-fireblade/114226-advice-for-exup-valve-flapper-mod-cbr-929-a.html

I have posted the update for that thread as this new thread, it made sense to me.

Simply, I had my uk 929 with 24 k on the clock in the garage for some work being done, including service, mot, new Pipewerx end can, exhaust work, power commander v fitted, dynoed and tuned up, as well as front forks new seals, bushes and oil, the works etc.

Attached below is a picture of the end can, and the all important dyno chart.

Whilst I remember, the bike has had new oil, and they have used Motul semi synthetic. I put this info here, as neither in the Honda owners manual or the official service manual, does it specify whether to use semi or fully synthetic. The tuner's take on it is that semi is best for a road going only Honda of this age. I hope this information alone is of use to people. There is perhaps a little controversy over oil etc. in some threads. I am fine with semi synth.

Finally, and most controversially, we have the dynoing and tuning work results. The bike was dynoed with the exup valve and flapper intact in the air box, i.e. stock positions for both. It was dynoed with the flapper removed, exup intact. It was dynoed with flapper intact, exup removed. It was dynoed with both exup and flapper removed. All with the new end can fitted. Which position yielded the best results according to the tuners? The stock position, with both exup and flapper intact. Otherwise, there was apparently a large flat spot at 7000 revs, which couldn't be ironed out. It was also fitted with a k and n air filter too.

I was surprised too. As the tuners said, it was not typical. So the chart below shows the blue current map on the pc v after tuning, and the red previous map before tuning - I hope this makes sense.

The picture of the can is just for your perusal, I hope you like it, it sounds very good, particularly with a bit of power on.

In terms of the bike, I have only had it back for a few days. The fuelling is definitely different, you can feel it straight away, the clutch work you did in low gear at low revs just isn't needed anymore. It feels even more linear than it did before, bearing in mind how Honda's put their power down. Still early days, not much more I can say at the moment. The tacho needle jumps around now a little on idle, not like previous where it was rock solid once warm, but I am guessing that is the pc v doing its thing.

Be very interested to read any opinions. I hope this is of use to people.
 

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I've had a Pipewerx can on a previous bike, ZX9r, baffle out it was seriously ear bashing at certain revs, think 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, nice cans, and a free tshirt too.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I've had a Pipewerx can on a previous bike, ZX9r, baffle out it was seriously ear bashing at certain revs, think 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, nice cans, and a free tshirt too.
You're right about the certain revs Spaz, it really does sound tremendous with some power on. Not too loud, but a really good head turning roar.
 

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Had a Pipewerx shorty on a ZX12r, sounded like the hounds of hell and actually vibrated the entire row of houses crockery lol

My old 929 had a bouncy idle after deleting the valve, so I wouldn't worry much about it
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I am amazed that there hasn't been a lot of comments about the fact that the best dyno position in terms of power and torque was with both the flapper and exup intact, given the many threads and comments and owners set ups with them removed, and claiming superior performance with them removed. I was really expecting a backlash ;-)
 

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I don't recall any claiming superior performance after removal, if there was any though, i probably would have given a 'ha', i can't imagine Honda spending all that money on R&D for your average joe to come along and rip it apart for it to run better.
 

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do you have the charts from all the other runs as well? id be interested in seeing the difference in peak numbers between the runs of each combination.
 

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Air Box Flapper, Exhaust Valve and PAIR removed from mine and I have totally got rid of any flat spots with a Bazzaz fitted and self tune fitted into the exhaust...Makes a massive difference in Torque and BHP in my opinion...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
do you have the charts from all the other runs as well? id be interested in seeing the difference in peak numbers between the runs of each combination.
I don't as yet, but I will be going back to the tuners in the next few weeks with a view to getting them and chatting with the tuner himself, so if I do, I will of course post them and whatever comments are made to me about the tuning.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Air Box Flapper, Exhaust Valve and PAIR removed from mine and I have totally got rid of any flat spots with a Bazzaz fitted and self tune fitted into the exhaust...Makes a massive difference in Torque and BHP in my opinion...
That may well be the case, I am glad it seems like your bike is running better now. Do you have any charts or evidence other than anecdotal evidence that everything is ironed out etc? Air/fuel mix, that sort of thing, which is what seems to be vital in terms of dyno work if you do some serious digging, more so than any bhp or torque figures.
 

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Ok so I'd say about four years ago I had my 929 dyno'd with a Leo Vince end can and air box flapper removed but pairs valve and power valve working with stock air filter and it was producing gd power and extremely smooth power delivery. This was with a serial port pc3. Now 4-5years on i have made the 929 into a street fighter have fitted a power valve eliminator with jesters trick bits gp exhaust will be carrying out the pairs mod and fitting a k&n air filter and with +3 teeth on the rear sprocket. Will be getting it dyno'd set up in a couple of weeks still with the pc 3. Will let you know how it goes..
 

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Ok so I'd say about four years ago I had my 929 dyno'd with a Leo Vince end can and air box flapper removed but pairs valve and power valve working with stock air filter and it was producing gd power and extremely smooth power delivery. This was with a serial port pc3. Now 4-5years on i have made the 929 into a street fighter have fitted a power valve eliminator with jesters trick bits gp exhaust will be carrying out the pairs mod and fitting a k&n air filter and with +3 teeth on the rear sprocket. Will be getting it dyno'd set up in a couple of weeks still with the pc 3. Will let you know how it goes..
Since you are looking for HP; I would ditch the K&N. They spend a lot of money to promote their product. Most of their claims of higher power come from manufacturers that use a parts bin to make a vehicle. Honda does an excellent job with the stock filter and is actually better than a K&N. Did K&N just use a stock filter for the sizing or did they actually test their filter and dyno it on the vehicle it is designed for? If they did dyno tests, why not publish the results?

The answer is here:
http://www.fireblades.org/forums/articles-honda-fireblade/11140-air-filters-dyno-honda-cbr-929rr.html

Here's the short of it:
Submitted by: abtech

We ran the following tests regarding air filters on a stock 929 with OEM exhaust, Hindle bolt on and Hindle full system:

OEM filter 3 runs:

OEM Exhaust best run: 121.5
Hindle bolt on best run: 124.0
Hindle full system best run: 133.5

K&N 929 replacement filter:

OEM Exhaust best run: 119.0
Hindle bolt on best run: 121.0
Hindle full system best run: 129.5

"Whacked" filter (all paper removed, both screens remained)

OEM Exhaust best run: 124.5
Hindle bolt on best run: 127.5
Hindle full system best run: 137.0
So there you have it, a K&N will cost you power. More airflow doesn't make it better.
 

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I thought the oem filter would be better but I ask the tuner and he said go for the k&n. To be honest I'm not looking for big gains. I just want smooth power delivery with the new exhaust system I've fitted.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'd stick with the stock filter. The stock filters air better than the K&N does.
Ian, I can't disprove what you are saying, and those figures are reasonable evidence. I guess I wonder why they would fit a k an n then when tuning my bike? For the few quid they make in selling me the filter? I don't know. I am happy to believe that there must be something worth while with a k and n, even if the power is down slightly on the dyno, then in the better mix of air and fuel and thus fuelling overall? The guy who tunes for them is a professional rider as well as mechanic, rides in the tt, bsb etc, so how could I argue against his judgment over what you are saying? I am happy to put the point to him when I next visit.

I will add that my bike is running great now, and I got to 129.1 miles the other day without the fuel light coming on, previously I have run out at 110, I use Shell V Power Nitro, 99 octane in the uk.
 

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He does make money off of it and maybe he wants you to believe you are getting something out of it. Maybe he knows what that bike takes tuning wise based upon previous bikes where a K&N was used. The stock filter does a better job of smoothing the air out and thus allows more power to be produced...the K&N does the opposite of that. So the better fueling is with the stock filter.

K&N takes a stock filter and makes their filter based upon it. So they do no testing at all except for a flow test. Honda on the other hand built the air box and filter design based upon the motorcycle. Who did more research into it? The answer as proven by the dyno tests is Honda. You know what they say about making a copy of a copy right? That is what K&N does. To make the filter properly, they should be using the air box to design their filter; they just use the filter to get their measurements.

Is letting more dirt in your engine worthwhile? Is getting less power worthwhile?

At the end of the day, money talks. You can't put food on the table not selling.

Now, to bash K&N some more. I have never seen a dyno test where the K&N was the only change made and more power was produced in regards to a Honda motorcycle. The reason is pretty simple, K&N won't provide that information and many are not willing to do multiple tests; they just use a baseline, make all of the changes and then test again. Not a scientific result at all.

Does the K&N flow more? Yes, but with a cost. While this is not motorcycle filters, it does show you how the K&N compares to other OEM equivalent filters.


Notice that the K&N is dead last in terms of efficiency?

How about how much dirt it can hold?


How much dirt does it pass?



Does it flow more? Yep, so K&N is truthful here.



How about when it starts to get dirty? Well, it restricts more air then many OEM filters:


I fail to see why a K&N is worth the money. After it gets a little dirty, the stock filter performs better while still providing more power. I guess if you clean the filter every few thousand miles, it will always flow better than the stock filter but you still lost power with the K&N.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
He does make money off of it and maybe he wants you to believe you are getting something out of it. Maybe he knows what that bike takes tuning wise based upon previous bikes where a K&N was used. The stock filter does a better job of smoothing the air out and thus allows more power to be produced...the K&N does the opposite of that. So the better fueling is with the stock filter.

K&N takes a stock filter and makes their filter based upon it. So they do no testing at all except for a flow test. Honda on the other hand built the air box and filter design based upon the motorcycle. Who did more research into it? The answer as proven by the dyno tests is Honda. You know what they say about making a copy of a copy right? That is what K&N does. To make the filter properly, they should be using the air box to design their filter; they just use the filter to get their measurements.

Is letting more dirt in your engine worthwhile? Is getting less power worthwhile?

At the end of the day, money talks. You can't put food on the table not selling.

Now, to bash K&N some more. I have never seen a dyno test where the K&N was the only change made and more power was produced in regards to a Honda motorcycle. The reason is pretty simple, K&N won't provide that information and many are not willing to do multiple tests; they just use a baseline, make all of the changes and then test again. Not a scientific result at all.

Does the K&N flow more? Yes, but with a cost. While this is not motorcycle filters, it does show you how the K&N compares to other OEM equivalent filters.
Code:
I fail to see why a K&N is worth the money. After it gets a little dirty, the stock filter performs better while still providing more power. I guess if you clean the filter every few thousand miles, it will always flow better than the stock filter but you still lost power with the K&N.

{snip}

Thanks for the reply Ian, I do appreciate it. I will put some of these points to the tuner. But it begs the question - why do people use k and n then? It begs several questions, really, why are they such a huge performance brand if they aren't as good? I didn't have to have the k and n fitted, I agreed to it but I could of refused, as earlier in the original thread I asked people's opinions about having a k and n fitted, and knew already that some people were against the idea, but some people also spoke up for them.

Ultimately, the tuner is only employed by the company, he gets paid the same whether a k and n gets fitted anyway, so I am happy to discount that part of the argument to a degree, as I say, I think the margins on a filter are probably quite small, especially compared to the rest of the work done, which was pure profit for them, i.e the actual tuning, it's all labour costs.

The general theory seemed to be if having a pc fitted, then a k and n filter goes with it.

Ultimately, it would be good if I could have the bike re-dynoed with an oem filter and the k and n, to see what the difference may be. But the more I have looked into dyno figures and tests etc in general internet research, the generic received wisdom seems to be don't worry about the overall bhp and torque figures too much, it's how the bike is now running and what the fuel mix is like, and anecdotally, it seems to be running really well, trememdous power delivery and very smooth. Would I notice or appreciate another couple of bhp on the dyno? Unknown.

I will definitely speak to him about it though, and report back whatever I am told in response.
 

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They were good, just never in the Japanese motorcycles and they are more for race use. It all comes down to people did see performance gains in say a domestic automobile like a GM, Ford or Chrysler as they were parts bin vehicles anyway. When the same filter is used many times, the air intake system was never really tuned for the vehicle. So it was easy to get performance gains when the intake is pretty restrictive from the factory. That is not the case here with a Honda motorcycle. Just for some irony about parts bin vehicles. I have a 1970's Case garden tractor and if I put a K&N on it, it uses the same filter as many Harley Davidson's of that era. The is on a single cylinder roughly 500cc sized engine and HD uses the same air filter.
http://partstore.caseih.com/us/TitanMachineryFergusFalls/index.php?target=products&product_id=1767692&sl=ES

Look at how many tractors use that filter but you also see GMC, Ford, HD, etc. in there. That is a true definition of a parts bin vehicle and nothing was really designed for a specific purpose.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Okay, I took my bike back to the tuners for them to set the suspension up, and chatted with the tuner about what has been said here and elsewhere.

Just for the record, the tuner is a professional bike racer, races in stuff like the TT on the roads, and in BSB. He has a degree in engineering and wrote a dissertation on fuel mix or something like that. Furthermore he works for a professional bike tuners, who tune race and road bikes every day. I cannot begin to question his qualifications or experience, and I am not aware of anyone else on this forum who is more qualified both on paper and in experience than he is. I am 100% satisfied he knows exactly what he is talking about. Does that mean I take what he says as the gospel truth without question? No. But it does mean that unless someone else can top the above, I am going to believe him over them.

So, bearing the above in mind, I asked him about k and n filters, and some of the points that have been raised in this thread and others about them.

In brief, he said it was bollocks. K and N are freer flowing filters, and so with a freer flowing end can, it makes sense to get more air into the air box. If you can get 1 percent more air and 1 percent more fuel in, then 1 percent more performance out, or something like that.

The "damage" done by the larger particles I had discounted anyway, and he was of the opinion that if you put 250k on the bike and looked into the engine you might see tiny marks, but it was pretty unlikely, and even more unlikely you will get the engine to that anyway. He also mentioned about manufacturers recommending to not use an air filter at all when racing.

He related too about how he used the same k and n in his zx10r for the last 4 years racing, washing it when necessary.

I had already spent the money, there was no need to lie to me anyway or keep a pretence up.

In short I was satisfied with what he said, it all sounds fair enough to me. However, this is not to prove I am right or others are wrong, just to try and pass information on for others to consider, so I hope it helps. The bike is still running great too.
 
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