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Justified? Yes!

We carry Sudecon wipes for "our" patients that have been sprayed by the cops. My angle on that is that if they needed to be sprayed, I don't necessarily need to make them feel better and take the sting out of their eyes. I haven't used them yet but if my cop buddies need to spray, let them suffer I say. :clap:
 

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[armachair QB]
The car was a bit much, and it was only luck that prevented serious/fatal injuries to the perp. Someone's been playing GTA a little too long. They should've tasered/beanbagged/etc him instead.
[/armachair QB]
 

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The officers in this case, at least the ones closest to the suspect, could have shot him dead and, in all probability, weathered the aftermath.

Let me explain...

About twenty years ago, a Salt Lake City PD sergeant named Dennis Tueller developed what we in policing know today as the Tueller Drill. The Tueller Drill proved an average person could cover 21' in 1.5 seconds from a standing start before an average officer is able to respond with gunfire.

Most of us know that but for a shot to the heart, brain or spine, it's possible for an assailant to keep coming even after they've been shot. So even if you could get off a couple rounds before a knife wielding subject makes it to you (i.e. you've already brought your weapon to bear), it remains very likely that you're going to get cut, maybe badly.

What you saw in the video there was something of a goat-rope, a disorganized, haphazard response by police officers, not all of whom were acting in a highly disciplined way IMO. But that can be the nature of the beast in these situations. You have mere nano-moments to think and react... and the whole world has weeks and months to ruminate over your actions when the dust has settled.

Courts tell us police officers are not expected to retreat. The officers in this situation could not afford to let this individual break their containment area and get to innocent citizens whom might have been harmed.

While less-lethal options such as bean bag rounds, Pepperball guns and Tasers could certainly be of great value in an incident such as this, I can only assume the officers in question didn't have these devices at their disposal.

I have been party to a handful of incidents much like the one we observed in this video. My 'policy' is and remains very simple: (a) I will not retreat, risking falling over backwards or allowing the subject to get out of my containment area; (b) I will give the individual an opportunity to disarm (we're talking about a perishable period of time here, not long folks); (c) if less-lethal is available, it's used; (d) if it's not, deadly force is called for and the hammer is coming down, period.

Note: courts have also said that deadly force is deadly force, so running this guy over with a car versus shooting him to death with a firearm is largely a moot point.

FWIW...
 

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Good to see them not using lethal force. The guy is obviously nuttier than a peanut log, but that doesnt mean he should die. Good on them for showing some humanity towards a person that clearly has psychological issues.
 

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Keep in mind, nutty buddies can be dangerous to the extreme. Anyone remember the "Sniper" case. Wasn't that dude a vagrant and pan-handler for years?


Worst part about that, is Toronto PD has some weak spray, that comes out in a mist instead of heavy liquid form. Looks like 1 Officer took out 2 of his buddies. Not good. Didn't help he sprayed into the wind either, I guess. :idunno:
 

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Wow TO cops are nice! In Chicago that guy would have been done for sure. Very cool that they did not use lethal force, almost seems like the guy wanted them to shoot. They showed tremendous self control. :clap:
 

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Chain said:
The officers in this case, at least the ones closest to the suspect, could have shot him dead and, in all probability, weathered the aftermath.

Let me explain...

About twenty years ago, a Salt Lake City PD sergeant named Dennis Tueller developed what we in policing know today as the Tueller Drill. The Tueller Drill proved an average person could cover 21' in 1.5 seconds from a standing start before an average officer is able to respond with gunfire.

Most of us know that but for a shot to the heart, brain or spine, it's possible for an assailant to keep coming even after they've been shot. So even if you could get off a couple rounds before a knife wielding subject makes it to you (i.e. you've already brought your weapon to bear), it remains very likely that you're going to get cut, maybe badly.

What you saw in the video there was something of a goat-rope, a disorganized, haphazard response by police officers, not all of whom were acting in a highly disciplined way IMO. But that can be the nature of the beast in these situations. You have mere nano-moments to think and react... and the whole world has weeks and months to ruminate over your actions when the dust has settled.

Courts tell us police officers are not expected to retreat. The officers in this situation could not afford to let this individual break their containment area and get to innocent citizens whom might have been harmed.

While less-lethal options such as bean bag rounds, Pepperball guns and Tasers could certainly be of great value in an incident such as this, I can only assume the officers in question didn't have these devices at their disposal.

I have been party to a handful of incidents much like the one we observed in this video. My 'policy' is and remains very simple: (a) I will not retreat, risking falling over backwards or allowing the subject to get out of my containment area; (b) I will give the individual an opportunity to disarm (we're talking about a perishable period of time here, not long folks); (c) if less-lethal is available, it's used; (d) if it's not, deadly force is called for and the hammer is coming down, period.

Note: courts have also said that deadly force is deadly force, so running this guy over with a car versus shooting him to death with a firearm is largely a moot point.

FWIW...

Ever kill a man?
 

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phobiaphobe said:
Ever kill a man?
Turn my weapon on another human being and discharge it to protect myself or a fellow officer? Yes, I have. Did I kill the individual in question? No.

Why, pray tell? :hmm:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Chain said:
Turn my weapon on another human being and discharge it to protect myself or a fellow officer? Yes, I have. Did I kill the individual in question? No.

Why, pray tell? :hmm:
Damn, that means you're a great shot or a lucky SOB!! :smilebig:

Mental note to self, don't fuck with Chain.
 

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Chain said:
Turn my weapon on another human being and discharge it to protect myself or a fellow officer? Yes, I have. Did I kill the individual in question? No.

Why, pray tell? :hmm:

Just friendly curiosity is all. I find your profession fascinating. Seems like the kind of thing that would really permanently change a person.

When you shot someone did you have to go through a bunch of counselling and time off?
 

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phobiaphobe said:
Just friendly curiosity is all. I find your profession fascinating. Seems like the kind of thing that would really permanently change a person.

When you shot someone did you have to go through a bunch of counselling and time off?
Depending on what study you cite, there's a better than average chance a police officer who shoots someone during the performance of their duties will not make it to retirement. Many officers fall ill to Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and take disability. Not all, but a statistically significant number.

As for counseling and whatnot, in most progressive agencies it's mandatory, not only for shooting situations, but any time an officer is involved in an incident which leads to serious injury or death to a citizen or fellow police officer. It's typically called 'Critical Incident Stress Debriefing' - CISD for short. It's a combination of roundtable group therapy and individual counseling, but it can take other forms as well.

For instance, I was among three officers on the roof of a 15 story apartment building in downtown Omaha on a very cold night in April, 1992 when a despondent man threw himself to his death despite our attempts to talk him down (and a failed attempt to grab him when he jumped). It was the first (but would not be the last) time I ever saw someone die in real time, right before my eyes. We all had to go through CISD.

When my dear friend and trainee, Jimmy Wilson, Jr., was murdered on a traffic stop on August 20, 1995, I had to attend CISD again, even though I wasn't working that night. I got the call at home and vividly remember dropping a bottle of beer at my feet as I stood on the patio, grilling dinner for my wife and I. CISD and some individual counseling ensued. To this day, I still harbor some anger over his murder. I suppose this is human nature though; it's not like I'm ready to start heading out in the middle of the night, impersonating Charles Bronson (not as far as any of you know anyway - :smilebig: ).

Personally, I dislike the department head-shrinkers, but so long as they don't flag me as a nutcase :loony:, I will happily solider on doing what I love to do, driving around in my black-and-white, answering 911 calls for service and ferreting out shitbags who prey upon the innocent.
 

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Chain said:
I will happily solider on doing what I love to do, driving around in my black-and-white, answering 911 calls for service and ferreting out shitbags who prey upon the innocent.
:clap:

:patriot:
 
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