Honda Motorcycles - FireBlades.org banner

1 - 20 of 111 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Before we get down to buisness i would first like to say that I am in no way responsible for any problems or blown parts as a result of following this tutorial, do so at your own risk! Not every bike is the same electrically and not every bike uses the same winding pattern. Do not attempt to rewind your stator unless you feel confidant in your ability to do so correctly. errors in the number of turns or placement of the poles for each phase can result in your voltage regulator/recitfier letting the magic blue smoke out.

lets briefly go over stators and how the stator works in the alternator. a alternators job is to turn mechanical power from the engine into electrical power for the lights, turnsignals and most importantly the ignition. the alternator usualy does this with a permantly magnetic rotor

and a electromagnetic stator.
(unwound)

as the rotor rotates around the stator, the magnets in the rotor react with the coiled wire and iron in the stator (you can see the individual magnets in the pic of the rotor if you look closely). the poles on the rotor alternate north and south and as such alternate the voltae coming out + and -. this is done at a rather high frequecny based on the engine's RPM. these alternating currents (might be voltage but i dont know for sure) are then picked up by your voltage regulator, turned into rectified DC current and limited in voltage. that power is then used for all your bikes electrial needs and the excess power is stored in the battery.

If anyone has ANY questions AT ALL, feel free to PM me or shoot me a email at [email protected] ill do what i can to help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,582 Posts
please add details. like where you get the wire from, do you coat the wire yourself? how do you jump from pole to pole?

i've had a 2nd aftermarket stator give continuity right after installing. not even 5 minutes. They have warranty and i'll get it changed but i've been down off and on for 2 weeks now. and i'm going to attempt a stator winding myself now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
The failure and unwinding proccess

The reason why my stator failed was a odd series of events. A screw came loose on the charging rotor and hit a screw on the stator. this created metal chips and a couple of them stayed inside the rotor. they eventually embedded themselves in the hammer head and deformed it as you can see in the pic the laminations shifted and cut into the wire thus shorting that pole and eventually the phase.


Unfortunatly I didnt take pics of the stator as i was unwinding it. Its pretty straightforward. all you do is just pull on a single strand at a time and count the the number of times it goes around the pole and how many poles are between the poles on the same phase. also check the direction the wire is wound in. some winds have poles that are wound bacwards from the others(DLRK, and imbalanced). you will also want to mic the wire and determine the wire guage. MAKE SURE YOU WEAR GLOVES AND USE PLUERS FOR TIGHTS SPOTS... THE BROKEN VARNISH AND INSULATION CAN CUT YOU

to makeit easier to remember patterns most use a simple sequecne of letters to show where each pole is on the stator and what direction there wound. we will use my stator as an example. It's wound sequentially and is noted as ABCABCABCABCABCABC. If you count there are 18 letters, these correspond to the 18 poles on the stator. these stators are 3 phase, this usually means 3 main strands of wire, though a single strand may consist of multiple strands in parallel. All the A's are wound with the same strand. same with the B's and C's. some winds have reverse would poles. in which case the letter is lower case. Torque Imballanced (electrical torque not mechanical!! it is DIFFERENT) is this way. its noted as AaBbCcAaBbCcAaBbCcAaBbCcAaBbCcAaBbCc. This may not make a lot of sense right now but it will once i post some pics with this idea.

My stator is ABCABCABCABCABCABC, 37 turns of 18 guage wire.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
Re: The failure and unwinding proccess

My stator is ABCABCABCABCABCABC, 37 turns of 18 guage wire.
If you're using a mic to measure the thickness of the wire perhaps give us that measurement (in millimeters of course) instead of gauge. I think only the US still uses wire gauge and I don't think you can get wire gauge micrometers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
please add details. like where you get the wire from, do you coat the wire yourself? how do you jump from pole to pole?

i've had a 2nd aftermarket stator give continuity right after installing. not even 5 minutes. They have warranty and i'll get it changed but i've been down off and on for 2 weeks now. and i'm going to attempt a stator winding myself now.
I get my wire from a local industrial motor winding company but i have gotten wire from alliedelect.com before. Its under the magnet wire section and its listed as polyester polymidemide enamled wire. Its rated for 200*C which is needed for the hostile conditions inside a motor. The wire i get from the local place is rated for 220C! I'll also go over how to varnish the stator once its wound. if done correctly you will have a stator just as good if not better then the stock stator (aftermarket stators are usually junk)

there are a few different ways to jump poles. ill go over all that once i start the winding process on monday. Ill also go over a few different winding patterns and some theory.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
I'll go over all that once i start the winding process on monday. I'll also go over a few different winding patterns and some theory.
I'd be interested in how much time you put into the various bits as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Re: The failure and unwinding proccess

If you're using a mic to measure the thickness of the wire perhaps give us that measurement (in millimeters of course) instead of gauge. I think only the US still uses wire gauge and I don't think you can get wire gauge micrometers?
without insulation the wire was exactly 1 mil or .04 inch in diameter...18.5 guage. since I'm in The States everything is sold by guage so thats the system I use. Ill be rewinding with 18 guage. There are conversion tables on the internet such as this one.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
Re: The failure and unwinding proccess

without insulation the wire was exactly 1 mil or .04 inch in diameter...18.5 guage. since I'm in The States everything is sold by guage so thats the system I use. Ill be rewinding with 18 guage. There are conversion tables on the internet such as this one.

If you were measuring it with a AWG gauge I wouldn't have worried as I understand that you use it.
But, since you are measuring it with a mic and then converting it to gauge anyway it seems sensible to include that measurement as well for non-US readers :)
That does raise another point though.
Using 18AWG instead of the 1mm metric wire, what effect does that have on the final winding? I know it's an insignificant difference but I'm curious whether it's a technically better or worse option.
Does the metal used in the wire matter as well?
Is there an advantage to using insulated wire?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
So far i have about a half hour in the unwind. im guessing about an hour to rewind. varnishing wont take long since you basically paint it on and bake it.
Wow, I figured there'd be a lot more than that in it.
It's probably a good option for many people to try before spending on a replacement then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,582 Posts
I get my wire from a local industrial motor winding company but i have gotten wire from alliedelect.com before. Its under the magnet wire section and its listed as polyester polymidemide enamled wire. Its rated for 200*C which is needed for the hostile conditions inside a motor. The wire i get from the local place is rated for 220C! I'll also go over how to varnish the stator once its wound. if done correctly you will have a stator just as good if not better then the stock stator (aftermarket stators are usually junk)

there are a few different ways to jump poles. ill go over all that once i start the winding process on monday. Ill also go over a few different winding patterns and some theory.
You da man.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
little motor theory

If you were measuring it with a AWG gauge I wouldn't have worried as I understand that you use it.
But, since you are measuring it with a mic and then converting it to gauge anyway it seems sensible to include that measurement as well for non-US readers :)
That does raise another point though.
Using 18AWG instead of the 1mm metric wire, what effect does that have on the final winding? I know it's an insignificant difference but I'm curious whether it's a technically better or worse option.
Does the metal used in the wire matter as well?
Is there an advantage to using insulated wire?
if i have a diameter ill post it.

This is the second charging stator ive ever wound but i have wound numberous brushless "outrunner" motors used on radio controlled model aircraft. they are basically the same thing as a motorcycles' charging rotor in stator. the only real difference is that they turn electrical power to mechanical power opposed to turning mechanical to electrical. The theory used for the motor variety was taken from generator technology.

on the motor variety, RPMs per volt or K/V (commonly and incorrectly called Kv in the motor market) is determined by how many times the wire is wrapped around the stator pole (referred to as the number of turns). since your varying RPM on the generator, the output voltage changes. This is why it is critical to rewind with the same number of turns that came out. a higher voltage wind eill fry the regulator/rectifier and too low of a voltage will not effectivly power the bike.

another important note on motor/generator winding but not at big as the number of turns is the physical layout of the wire and the pattern in which it is wound. different winding patterns produce a different waveform. the waveform can vary from a steep angular sawtooth to a smooth and fluid sinasoidal one. I really dont know what type of waveform would be the best match for a motorcycle seeing as how this is a new application of these skills to me. too sharp pf a wave form could produce peaks that can interfere with the cumputerized ignition system but too soft can damage the voltage reg/rec so logic would say to use a pattern that causes a "inbetween" waveform. sequenceial ABC winding with a zigzag pole jumping pattern will do this (the stock stator is also ABC but it has no zigzag pole jumping). the addition of a filter on the wires going to the voltage reg/rec will also help (ill show you how to make a filter in this tutorial aswell. the idea is to use a pattern that is known to have a sharp waveform and to smooth it out with tricks such as these. while im waiting on the wire ill do some research on what type of wave form would be ideal. im guessing that ill have to call some of my electrial engineer friends on this one. the amount and shape of the ciron core also has an effect but since we can't change that i wont get into it.

and as for the mildly thicker wire, for a motor, the more copper you can fit in a motor's stator the better. it meant the motor could sustain higher amp draws without looking like a shot down WWI plane in mid flight. you want the same thing for a generator the more copper means you cna put more of a load on it without ending up with a paperweight that smells like old burnt popcorn. the wires composition doesnt really matter, the least resistive wire the better. since gold is too expensive copper is used. and your last question: if the wire wasn't insulated with enamel, it would short out since it they will be in constant contact once wound

EDIt: i added a pic of the crispy stator with some model airplane and helicopter motors next to it. the motor on the far left is a 12 pole stator would DLRK (AabBCc) next to that is the smallest outrunner i own (weighs 9 grams when wound!!) to the right of the stator is the largest outrunner in my collection. it was used on a T-rex 600 helicopter. its another DLRK motor but its rotor has 10 magnets opposed to the standard 14 making it a high rpm motor for its large size
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Wow, I figured there'd be a lot more than that in it.
It's probably a good option for many people to try before spending on a replacement then.
The stators on the 900RRs are really simple. its your basic 3 phase generator with one of the simpliest winding patterns to boot. most of the other sportbike stators ive seen have an extra coil in the stator for the ignition. my friend calls it a tickler coil, all it basically does is produce a higher voltage (around 50 volts) for the ignition system. a higher voltage on the input side of the coil means you wont have to step up the voltage in the coil as much, allowing the bike to use smaller, less expensive coils.

It is a great option for just about anyone. its simple to rewind and at tops costs about $40 USD to do. A handwound stator done properly is just as good if not better then a store bought one. its easy work as you will see in the later posts. I ould advise that anyone that does decide to rewind their stator to make sure that they can afford to replace both a stator AND voltage reg/rec in case something does go wrong. Ive been winding things like this for a few years and I still make mistakes. $hit happens
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
as long as a person does everything carefully and takes their time, it will usually work but there is allways that potential for error. that is why the first line of the first post i said "do at your own risk"
I'm a confirmed life-long dicker so I'm always happy to accept responsibility for my screw ups - as long as I learn something I'm happy :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,582 Posts
I've heard of other people trying to rewind the 929 stators and they've failed after a few k's of km's on the bike. since i have an old burnt stator, i think i can wind it though and want to learn how.

i just received another stator under warranty cause the last one burnt out after 50 km's. continuity between phases and to the base. I put the new one in yesterday ( stupid me i didn't check continuity beofre installation ) but after 5 minutes of idling, i noticed voltage dropping very slightly. pulled stator out again, and again continuity between phases. There are absolutely no burn marks on the stator, and look new ( obviously ) except for it being coated with a little oil. Long story short. could the RR have blown this stator and how? plus wouldn't there be burnt out poles if the wire was to ground out?

i personally think it's another dud and am getting pissed off with this company. customer service is top notch with them though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I've heard of other people trying to rewind the 929 stators and they've failed after a few k's of km's on the bike. since i have an old burnt stator, i think i can wind it though and want to learn how.

i just received another stator under warranty cause the last one burnt out after 50 km's. continuity between phases and to the base. I put the new one in yesterday ( stupid me i didn't check continuity beofre installation ) but after 5 minutes of idling, i noticed voltage dropping very slightly. pulled stator out again, and again continuity between phases. There are absolutely no burn marks on the stator, and look new ( obviously ) except for it being coated with a little oil. Long story short. could the RR have blown this stator and how? plus wouldn't there be burnt out poles if the wire was to ground out?

i personally think it's another dud and am getting pissed off with this company. customer service is top notch with them though.
if not wound with the right wire a hand wound stator will fail everytime, same if its not wound neatly and properly. since ambient temp in the case is upwards of 120 *c you need to wire with the right enamel coating. your typical enameled wire is only rated for 150*C so it will fail even if its been varnished. industrial motor wire is usually rated for 200-220 C. polyester polymidemide enameled is one of my favorites though pricey ($40 USD per lb). unless theres a short somewhere else on the bike you would be hardpressed to blow up a stator done with high temp wire, neatly wound and varnished.

its possible that you just got 2 duds but not very likly. a bad voltage reg/rec or battery will blow them up but it usually takes a little more time and rpm then 5 mins idleing. How many wires are coing out of your stator? 3 or 5?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
32,034 Posts
How many wires are coming out of your stator? 3 or 5?
Three wires on the 929/954.

If the magnets are damaged I would assume you'd just get insufficient output rather than burning it out?

I'm absolutely hopeless with electicity so I particularly appreciate your taking the time to educate us. I can't imagine I'll ever need to re-wire a stator but I'd still like to understand what's involved in it :)

Are you trained in the field or is this simply stuff you've picked up yourself?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
342 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Three wires on the 929/954.

If the magnets are damaged I would assume you'd just get insufficient output rather than burning it out?

I'm absolutely hopeless with electicity so I particularly appreciate your taking the time to educate us. I can't imagine I'll ever need to re-wire a stator but I'd still like to understand what's involved in it :)

Are you trained in the field or is this simply stuff you've picked up yourself?
Ive never seen a charging system with broken magnets so im not sure what it would do. ive never even broke a magnet on any of my model motors... but here is my guess.
i believe the 96 and on blades use saratinium cobalt magnets (a type of rare earth maenget) in their rotors. they are the second most powerful type of magnet second to neodynium. neodynium magnets lose thir magnetism at a relativly low temperature. i think its around 250-300 degrees F but im not sure. but basically a neodnium magnet would lose its magnetism after a while making the charging noting more then dead weight. saratinum colbalt magnets are just a tad weaker but have a much higher heat tolerance. when it comes to power generation the stronget the magnet the more poer you can make. saratinum cobalt magnets like most other rare earth magnets are a sintered product and have almost a crystyllene structure. this makes them brittle. when one of these magnets cracks in half it makes 2 sepeate magnets and will repell eachother. in a rotor where there forced together it will maintain the polarity but there will be a flux line that could effect the wave form when that pole reacts with the stator. if theres enough of these cracked magnets it could blow the regulator/rectifier but odds are that would be the least of your worries. if theres something big enough to crack the magnets that bad odds are it will cause some chunks to come loose and tear up the staor and possibly the engine. the mesh in the oil pick up and oil filter ould probably catch any particles beore they could do any real damage but the possibility still exists

Im glad that I can help and even more glad that you guys are taking an interest to this.

I'm actually a chemical engineering student right now. A friend of mine, Alex who is alredy a electrical engineer got me into electric model flying. after i got the hang of flying we both started making our own airplanes. soon the inevitable happened, Alex smoked a motor. insted of throwing it out he rewound it. the motor gained a lot of power and ran better then new. we later started doing that to other motors and eventually started buying motors as kits and just wound them ourselves. we both researched motor technology but Alex, being a EE knew how he could modify the motors and started coming up with new winding patterns and tricks. I basically lerned what i could from him since I electricity isnt really one of my specialties. it would be safe to say I would be clueless about this stuff if I never got into that hobby and started widing motors.
once I got the hang of it we started getting competitive and thats when a lot of the new patterns started coming out. we have both broke the 130 MPH barrier on less then 350 watts. the motors have reached effecientys well in the 80% range which was almost unheard of in the group. I started puting thesr motors in other things like a 1/8 scale offorad buggy and boats. word travelled and people started aking me to make motors for them. as it turned out there was enough of a interest and i was able to make it into a side job. I make around 200 a month from motorwork. currently i have the equipment to do everything motor related except for a press to stamp laminations. if it weren't for that I could produce my own line of motors.

at this point ive been typing for about a half hour.. ill finish this in another post in the mrning
 
1 - 20 of 111 Posts
Top